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I'll say this first: we want to NOT USE WINE. we don't care how much WINE has advanced, want to avoid reliance on an outside program to run this. Ok, ...
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  1. #1
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    Question Game Graphics Engine- no WINE!


    I'll say this first: we want to NOT USE WINE. we don't care how much WINE has advanced, want to avoid reliance on an outside program to run this. Ok, on with the post!

    I've been planning a game with someone and we want it to be able to run on linux (Umbuntu base) without wine. It should be able to also run on Windows as well, however.

    The game will be a graphical MU* with combat and item systems. We have no budget- it's a shoestring sort of thing.

    Here's what has been hashed out so far:

    • Programed in C#, maybe with some .NET
    • graphics will be 2D, however, a 3d effect is wanted for things like ascending and descending (Z axis)
    • Partner wants to use Tom Shane's GUI library (Neoforce Controls)
    • Partner wants to use flatredball as graphics engine
    • I don't care what is used as long as it works without WINE


    Here's the problem:
    Flat red ball uses Direct X and is not openGL compatible (that I'm aware of) and my partner wants the effects from the flat red ball engine. Also, the GUI library he wants is also not openGL compatible.

    We need some other opensource or freeware graphics engine that can do things like flat red ball but still work in Linux. GUI packs are also nice. I Tried suggesting but Partner has issues with....
    • Mono - Mono.XNA won't work
    • directly using openGL - thinks it's "too hard" after playing with OpenTK even though I told him they aren't the same
    • Java - too clunky
    • Horde3d - Wouldn't even look at the link


    Any suggestions of what can be used or should I maybe consider a new partner?

    We've only been working on planning stages and aren't too in-depth yet. Also, his former interest in making this run in wine without Linux seems to be dipping right along with a marked increase in wanting to rely on Microsoft.

  2. #2
    Linux Guru techieMoe's Avatar
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    First question: why .NET? If you want your game to be Linux-friendly why not use a language that works well with Linux, such as C++? Also, why reinvent the wheel? There are open-source and Linux-compatible commercial game engines you can use to get started.

    CUBE is one, TORQUE is another.

    Cube Engine Games
    Game Development Tools and Software | TorquePowered.com
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    Quote Originally Posted by techieMoe View Post
    First question: why .NET? If you want your game to be Linux-friendly why not use a language that works well with Linux, such as C++? Also, why reinvent the wheel? There are open-source and Linux-compatible commercial game engines you can use to get started.

    CUBE is one, TORQUE is another.
    Using .NET was my partner's idea, actually, and it's mostly because XNA files are made to work with .NET and both flat red ball and Tom Shane's GUI set use .XNA files. I'm happy with just C++ or even straight out JAVA. If we can get a good engine that can run on Linux, using .NET won't be needed anymore.

    Having no budget is hard sometimes, which is why we've been stuck "reinventing the wheel" a little. At most we may be able to swing $100, though we hope to save what little we have towards startup costs. We are doing this out of pocket.

    The other reason we are finding ourselves reinventing the wheel is that we want to make a graphical MU* with the option of player-created content on personalized maps. We want to give people a world to play in and let them decide what they do, but leave open some plots if they want to follow them. There will be character creation and some NPCs, so it's not quite a sandbox, but it will be very open-ended.

    What's a MU*? Check the Wikipedia Articles on MUSH, MOO and TinyMUCK for more. Think like those only with graphics!

    ---

    OK, I checked out Torque and though it looks nice, we can't afford the 1,000 pricetag.

    Cube looks like it could be promising, provided we can figure out how to get it to do what we want it to as it's not a FPS. We also are less skilled at 3D rendering than 2D spriting so using 3D graphics is actually not preferred.

    Any other ideas for programs to look into, guys? All ideas for graphics engines or even entire build engines are welcome. This is our first try for a Linux compatible game, so every bit helps. Just keep in mind that we need....
    • Inexpensive cost (under $100- free is best!)
    • Must be able to run on Linux without Wine, yet still must be able to work on Windows
    • Option of 2D graphics would be nice
    • Open source is preferred.
    • Must be able to handle MU* type game style.

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    Linux Guru techieMoe's Avatar
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    If you want this to be 2D, that simplifies things a bit. There are free 2D graphics libraries that work with Linux (and Windows) such as Qt or GTK+, both of which use C++. I haven't used them since college, but there's bound to be a few "Make your first 2D game with Qt" tutorials out there.

    You could also write it in Java using the Swing graphical API. Integrated development environments like Netbeans or Eclipse will sometimes give you visual drag-and-drop interfaces for making a GUI. There's a number of options out there.
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    I'll bounce them off my partner and see what he thinks. Thanks very much for the lists and ideas! I'll post back later or edit this when I get a solid answer on what he thinks.

    I'm still open to more ideas if anyone else wants to add anything.

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    I'd have to say, your 'partner' does not seem to know what to do. For one, stay away from all of these:

    -DirectX
    -XNA
    -C#
    -Java (unless it's an online game)
    -.NET

    Don't try and make your own game engine, it will take way too long. I would like to echo what someone else said, try using TORQUE or CUBE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neotyguy40 View Post
    I'd have to say, your 'partner' does not seem to know what to do. For one, stay away from all of these:

    -DirectX
    -XNA
    -C#
    -Java (unless it's an online game)
    -.NET
    It is an online game. All graphical MU*s are multiplayer online games.

    I know why DirectX, .NET, and XNA won't work, but what is wrong is C#?

    I'll also need strong reasons why C++ is OK to use as my partner seems Allergic to C++ and possibly C, too.

    He claims when trying to code in C++ he was spending all his time fixing "memory leaks". He also claims "C# has outperformed C++ according to microsoft but mostly with algorithmic things". Yes, more of the Microsoft love and, yes, this is a direct quote from him.

    I wouldn't doubt that he doesn't know what to do with Linux. As I said, this is our first try at making something Linux compatible, even though I'm a lot more open-minded than he is.

    UPDATE:

    Right now he seems to be interested in using Axiom as our engine for everything, which is Linux compliant as it's based on OGRE3D. However, Aviom uses C#.

    Yes, they are updating Axiom again and right now there's a February 2010 update on Codeplex.

    I suggested just using Ogre as it's more robust, but, again, he's afraid to code in C++.

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    Hi,

    I would then go for the SDL Simple DirectMedia Layer
    SDL engine:
    Overview - ClanLib SDK

    Good luck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lamoxlamae View Post
    It is an online game. All graphical MU*s are multiplayer online games.
    Well then I bet you could probably use InstantAction to port your game. Otherwise you need to use a WebGL engine.

    I know why DirectX, .NET, and XNA won't work, but what is wrong is C#?
    Well it's Windows only, which breaks the point of not using WINE.

    Here is my rant about C#: It's not a coding language, and it will never be a coding language. It's a scripting language that MS made by making a hacked version of Java, and it runs through a realtime virtual-machine.

    In layman's terms? It's slow as hell, and the only reason why anyone should use it is if they are just learning C-syntax code.

    I'll also need strong reasons why C++ is OK to use as my partner seems Allergic to C++ and possibly C, too.
    Then I am afraid he won't become a powerful programmer if he limits himself to easier languages.

    He claims when trying to code in C++ he was spending all his time fixing "memory leaks". He also claims "C# has outperformed C++ according to microsoft but mostly with algorithmic things". Yes, more of the Microsoft love and, yes, this is a direct quote from him.
    That is an impossible claim, because C# runs through C++, just like J# runs through Java. I also can't find anything where MS said that.

    I wouldn't doubt that he doesn't know what to do with Linux. As I said, this is our first try at making something Linux compatible, even though I'm a lot more open-minded than he is.
    Be open-minded, it's a great thing to be in the programming field.


    Right now he seems to be interested in using Axiom as our engine for everything, which is Linux compliant as it's based on OGRE3D. However, Aviom uses C#.
    Not a good idea to use Axiom. From what I see, it contains wrappers and layers upon layers of script-runtime.

    I also don't see anything suggesting that it's a game engine of any kind. It looks more just like a rendering engine.

    I suggested just using Ogre as it's more robust, but, again, he's afraid to code in C++.
    He sounds like a scripter, not a coder. If you really need his help with whatever project you're working on, then do as he says, but if you think you may be able to make your project by yourself, then just don't listen to him.

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    Linux Guru techieMoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neotyguy40 View Post
    Well it's Windows only, which breaks the point of not using WINE.

    I agree with most of your statements but I must take issue with this one. First of all, C# was created by Microsoft but it doesn't just run in MS Windows. Due largely to two major developments (Microsoft making C# an ECMA standard and the development of the OSS Mono framework as a drop-in replacement for .NET) you can develop and run C# programs in Linux. I'm taking a workshop on it as we speak, as a matter of fact.


    Here is my rant about C#: It's not a coding language, and it will never be a coding language. It's a scripting language that MS made by making a hacked version of Java, and it runs through a realtime virtual-machine.
    For all your talk about being open-minded, your definition of a "coding language" is awfully strict. Does python or perl not count as a "coding" language simply because they use an interpreter? Do you consider C and C++ the only true "coding languages"?

    C# was not developed from a "hacked version of Java." I believe you're mistaking it for J#. It does share a lot of the same syntax as Java, as well as the same kind of virtual bytecode interpreter, but it's far from a "hacked scripting language."

    In layman's terms? It's slow as hell, and the only reason why anyone should use it is if they are just learning C-syntax code.
    I've not run into any significant performance issues using C# in Microsoft Windows or Linux. For desktop applications (and especially considering the relative speed and available memory of modern desktop machines) C# is just as viable a language as C or C++. If you want to write a command-line tool that deals with Linux internals or schedules a cron job then it's obviously not the ideal language, sure. However that doesn't mean it's never the right choice.

    The reason I originally suggested they steer clear of C# for this project was simply because C# is a very new kid on the Linux block, and the Mono project hasn't 100% implemented all the functionality that would be necessary for a cross-platform game engine. The code they would need to draw even two-dimensional graphics would be platform-specific and thus not port well between Linux and Windows. It has nothing to do with inherent deficiencies of the language.
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