Newbies all want to run before they can walk

[hazel]

One thing I've noticed on these forums is that a lot of newbies have no idea of the difference between basic and advanced tasks. They download all kinds of stuff without bothering to learn about package formats or dependencies or even the difference between source and compiled packages, and then the installation doesn't work and they fly into a panic. Or they complain that they can't find things without first learning the Linux file system. One chap the other day didn't understand the file system but wanted to use parted to repartition his disk. I told him that if I were him, I wouldn't even think about doing that until I'd learned a bit more.

I think Windows encourages this kind of mindset because so much is done for you. You get the same sort of user interface for all tasks, simple or complex. You don't need to understand how anything works and you're not expected to either. No wonder a lot of lifetime Windows users find Linux difficult. They are trying to use it to do intrinsically difficult things with insufficient knowledge.

[Lordshooter]

Dear Hazel,
your post is interesting.
I agree with many things you say.
I think, we should accept more the way it is, and deal with the situation. We won't be able to teach them a other way to proceed, but most of them will find their way, and learn pretty fast, and get more interested in the structure and details of their operation system.

Most of all, we should keep in mind, that for some reason these users did convert from Windows to Linux, and that nevertheless, they are feeling more confortable and happy, since they have started to explore and work with Linux.

It might not only be a attitude, but may also be our modern and very fast moving times, that don't allways make it easy to relax and settle down in a calm moment to study the system with which we are working with.

I must admit, that I am not much better, than the typus of newbie you are describing.

I suggest, that we be less strict, shut one eye, and just be understanding and helpful, with the most good feelings towards these users.

I am not quite sure, but if you look at it from a distance, this is a revolution within the world of computer users. I can feel it, and I can read it every day in the forums and the Internet. There is a lot going on with Linux. There is a massive and powerful change and break happening. And each Linux user is a valuable member taking part at all this. A silent, but very busy revolution. We are indeed to be about to change this world. ...Well, in some sense, and in some direction. Changing it to the better. This is fantastic!

We need all of these users. Every one of them. Every one, is very important, no matter how awkward he starts with Linux. He will get much better within short time.

Let us show love, understanding and patience. We will all pull together, and be strong a community, with the same spirit and will under the members, and that pulls on the same rope/string. One direction, one great power. And showing others, that we can do it, and that these things are possible.

Every newbie is highly appreciated. Nobody is perfect. Learning by doing, exploring and troubleshooting, will become fun.

Kind regards,
Alexander

[Cabhan]

I think the real problem here is a combination of the popularity of computers and that most people are not brought up on UNIX-like OSes.

Nowadays, virtually every person who grows up in a 1st-world country knows how to do basic operations on a computer like accessing files and installing programs. What these people do not realize is that they only know how to do this on Windows. Even more technologically-savvy people have their knowledge rather limited to Windows.

As a result, when people come to Linux for whatever reason, they do not realize just how completely different it is. When you've grown up accessing C:\My Documents\ for 15 years, ~/documents seems extremely strange. The same applies to installations: on Windows, you just download an EXE and go. I would argue that installation is actually easier on Linux, but it is certainly a different process and a different culture.

The problem is that people do not realize that this stuff is complicated. It's like when I first learned to drive: back then, every time I touched the gas pedal, the car shot forward, and every time I touched the brake, we lurched to a stop. At this point, it just flows naturally.

When you've spent 15 years doing things in one environment, it becomes very natural. Moving to a different environment becomes EXTREMELY difficult. It's the main reason that Dvorak hasn't caught on widely: it may be more efficient for the fingers, but after 20 years of using a QWERTY keyboard, I use it so efficiently and easily that anything else requires a huge shift in the way I work.

I don't know that Windows necessarily encourages this sort of behavior. Rather, it simply promotes one method, while Linux promotes another. I imagine that anyone who grows up using Linux would find Linux very easy to use, while Windows would be nearly impossible, just because it's so different.

Lordshooter, I find your post a bit soapboxy. I very definitely believe that we can teach users a different way to learn and use an operating system. Proof: Vim and Emacs. If you come from Windows, these are so completely foreign to you, but they remain the most popular editors in the UNIX world. All because we say "Try looking at it this way" instead of changing the way they work.

My main objection to your arguments is that I don't believe that we need every user. Linux is not right for everybody, and to use Linux well _does_ require a certain willingness to sit down and teach yourself a different way of operating. You come into so much more contact with the operating system than you are used to, and therefore you need to understand some basics of how it works. There are some Linux people who get fed up too easily with new users, but Linux was designed to be (and remains) an operating system that has the philosophy of "We're here if you want us, but we're not necessarily going to bend to the way you want it".

[Lordshooter]

We are talking about newbies.

Yes, they might underestimate the work, they might even be a little bit lazy sometimes.

But they where not put off from Linux, after a while. They are still interested and still going ahead and making some progress.

A little more tolerance and understanding, and less hard, would be better.

Quote:
"Linux is not right for everybody, and to use Linux well _does_ require a certain willingness to sit down and teach yourself a different way of operating."

Linux is right for those user I just mentioned, as long as they still want to use Linux. There are not so many model students, how you would like to have the ideal Linux user: Full of willpower, and a hard-working and studiously learner/student.

Put the benchmark lower for the Linux user. Allow also the not so hard-working students to use it. They will take a bit longer, but they will also achieve.

Everyone, who is a interested Linux user, is a good enough, and a good Linux user.

What you are saying, is a little like discriminating the weak pupils and students, and only accepting the elite students and hard-working learners to use Linux, thinking that otherwise a other learning mentality would bring you nowhere.

Be a little more gentle with the not as good one, or the awkward ones.

We know, you are a "Guru", and are using the probably most complicated Linux OS. But you can't set the same high level, standart, benchmark, expectations, for the newbies.

Different students, need different teachers, and different teaching and learning methods. There is no such "one size fits all"-learning mentality in the Linux world.

Cheers,
Alexander

[Oxygen]

Who the hell said people need to LEARN the OS? I don't need to know in-depth stuff to use Linux normally. You shouldn't discourage people who want to use Linux as an actual OS instead of some sort of flat-pack code. Some people want to actually LIVE in the house rather than just build it.

[Vergil83]

Who the hell said people need to LEARN the OS? I don't need to know in-depth stuff to use Linux normally. You shouldn't discourage people who want to use Linux as an actual OS instead of some sort of flat-pack code. Some people want to actually LIVE in the house rather than just build it.

I have to agree with this. Yes there is a place for Linux users to learn all about there OS on a detailed level. But lots of people don't care and I see no reason why should have to. Because of the freedom built into the system we can do it both ways, for those that want to learn and those that don't.

[daark.child]

I disagree with both Oxygen and Vergil83 a little. Some knowledge is necessary in order for you to operate any OS. How much you learn depends on what exactly you want to use your system for. For exampe, if someone wants to run servers on Linux, Windows etc, then they need to understand in great detail how servers are run on the OS, security etc. Being ignorant about such things will obviously cause problems in the future.

I agree with hazel. I have seen many newbies trying to do so much in a short space of time and usually this results in a lot of frustration if they don't understand how things work or if they can't achieve their goals.

[smolloy]

I don't think people have to understand every little bit of code that goes into making a working OS, but I think they have to take the time to understand that a lot of the things they know about computers are really limited to windows only, and that they will have to relearn all this stuff if they want to use linux efficiently.

And I'm not talking about repartitioning a hdd, or recompiling a kernel -- I mean stuff like how to install a program, and where that executable will be kept afterwards (in the filesystem, or through the KDE/gnome menus), or where to find their documents folder.

Sometimes it is these very minor things that trip up new users.

[fingal]

I tend to agree with Hazel, while admitting that I was probably no different when I started out with Linux. The only advantage I have is persistence... For some reason I will keep trying something (on a computer anyway) long past the point when I should rationally and reasonably stop.

But yes... I think patience helps. It really is worth learning the structure of the OS, and a few basics. It's certainly possible to use Linux without getting bogged down in too many details. Remember, it's only a computer!

[bigtomrodney]

I see where Vergil and Oxygen are coming from but I don't think they're on the same track. No one should have to learn how to compile a kernel to use open office.

But there are many new users who attempt to do things well beyond their experience or knowledge. I commend them on this but they should approach it as something new to be learned rather than go off on how 'they're good on windows' or how something is stupid because it is different. I'm sure most of us would agree that after using a package management system that it is a great way to get things done. But time and time we have to listen to how rpm's are stupid because of dependency hell. At which point you find out the user is individually downloading rpm files and trying to do it by hand. No wonder they're frustrated! But five minutes of reading up on what they were doing and they would have known this is not the way. They would have been using repos like most of us and probably loving it.