[Geeth]

Funny that you should post this... Well to me.

On the weekend I got sick of my set and also that both hard drives have ended up with bootloaders becuase of confusion with the sata controller order on my new motherboard.

I was talking to a friend who was saying that I should try debian, becuase he thinks that ubuntu is unsecure and a resource hog etc.

So after finding out that the main instal dvd for debian doesn't find my sata hard drives. So I try the net install cd.
I go through, and try it first of all as just base siystem becuase I wanted to use fluxbox and xdm instead of gnome.

Install is fine, boot into CLI is good.
Then i do the usual apt-get for flux, xdm and sever.
Reboot, Xserver boots, black screen, none of the terminal show up. everything is black.

So I think bugger this, and re-install with gnome.
Gnome boots to what looks as modern as red hat 9, with the res max at 1280*1024.
After installing various software including my nvidia drivers.... No change, check xorg and the driver is set to nvidia, change to nv jsut incase. No change.
I think, hmmm why not manual install them, try to go to a tty 1 -6 so i can kill xserver and they are all black like with the first install.
So I have no decent resolution, no wifi and its ugly as hell.

I started to wonder why I should mess around with this ugly complicated distro (to me thats as it seems) when I can just through in the Ubuntu cd install. My atheros drivers and WPA works off the bat, update install what I need and get my nvidia drivers nice and easy.
It's nice quick and most of all for me, easy.

Hmmm that was a longer rant then I thought it would be..... oh well.

[elija]

Blimey! I opened a can of worms and it turned out to be a hot potato!

If I had the choice I would definately run Debian Stable on our web servers at work
but the closet the hosting company offers is Ubuntu 6.06, which also seems to be very
stable.

As I said, the thing I didn't like about Debian stable on my desktop at home was
the age of some of the software. OOO 2.0 feels slow and ancient, I couldn't even
find Sauerbraten in the repos and I find that a great way to wind myself up and relax
at the same time. The age of the software wouldn't be a real problem if it was easier to
update it.

Geeth, I had no trouble with the screen displaying and Debian got the 1440x900 resolution
of my monitor right. It asked when installing X.

[GNU-Fan]

I think the trouble is the desktop hardware and typical desktop applications change a bit too frequently for the Debian Stable release cycles.

The Debian release managers want to give the users a trouble -free system by making sure the packed software is mature. But they maybe underestimate the problems a new piece of hardware can make on old kernels.

Therefore the result is sometimes the exact opposite of what they tried to achieve. E.g. the "black screen" as featured on Geeth's system and also mine when I had a new GFX card the old kernel didn't know how to handle.
(Not a problem for me though as I bake my custom kernel anyway and download the latest when doing so. But of course this wasn't the premise of Stable.)

Another point I don't like so much in the stable branch is the fact that some of the application are so old their former developers have died of natural causes already presumably. You can't give much feedback about these programs because they are so outdated.
I also have a Unstable on another partition so I can nag the developers today in the hope that when the today's version will reach my Stable in 10 years it will have been implemented by then, hehe.

While Unstable seems to run without major annoyances I always come back to Stable just because I like the cartoonish look of GNOME 2.14 better as the polished look of its successor. (And you can't just switch the theme because the rendering engine has been changed some years ago.)

[GNU-Fan]

Originally Posted by elija

As I said, the thing I didn't like about Debian stable on my desktop at home was
the age of some of the software. OOO 2.0 feels slow and ancient, I couldn't even
find Sauerbraten in the repos and I find that a great way to wind myself up and relax
at the same time. The age of the software wouldn't be a real problem if it was easier to
update it.
.

Oh, actually I happen to run exactly these two programs in their newest version on my Etch.
Sauerbraten is to be found as a precompiled binary on the website and can be unzipped into you home-dir.

From OO I downloaded the newest developer version, unzipped it and told the installer I wanted it to be installed in my $HOME.

Both of these have been installed and run just fine without ever needing root privileges for that.

[elija]

I didn't bother trying - the problems I had with FF3 made me think Nah!

[Manchunian]

Why not give Arch Linux a try, elija? It's more dificult to install than Debian, but it might satisfy you more than Ubuntu. It's faster than practically anything I've ever used, and has some great tools like Pacman (at least nearly as good as apt), abs and lovely jovely Kdemod! Also, being a rolling distro means that it's always up-to-date, and I can guarantee that it's more robust than some of the other bleeding edge type distros.
Note that if you print off and follow the install guide from the official wiki, the installation isn't actually that problematic.

[IsaacKuo]

Originally Posted by Geeth

Funny that you should post this... Well to me.
[...]
Install is fine, boot into CLI is good.
Then i do the usual apt-get for flux, xdm and sever.
Reboot, Xserver boots, black screen, none of the terminal show up. everything is black.

At least you were able to boot up into CLI. Ubuntu fails to even do that on several of my laptops. In their infinite wisdom, the Ubuntu developers have decided that a buggy boot splash feature is desirable. The result on many machines is that the console screen is simply blank, and bootup looks like it hangs for ten minutes. Fortunately, it eventually gets to gdm so graphical login is possible, but if I wanted to boot into a text console I'd be screwed.

I figured out a fix, which is to delete "splash" option from all of the relevant entries in /boot/grub/menu.lst.

Unfortunately, I have to reapply this fix every time the kernel is updated--which is far too often since this is Ubuntu we're talking about. The Ubuntu updater is too stupid to retain any changes to the options and/or they always think everyone always wants that buggy bootsplash option.

I've never had any problems like that with Debian.

I usually have to go through a little more effort to get Debian set up in the first place, but once that's done I'm not constantly fighting to keep the system functional, like Ubuntu.

The main problem with Debian Stable is that it tends to not support the newest new hardware. That's okay with me, since I buy/acquire budget hardware.

Another problem is with nVidia, but at least there's a very good reason for it. The Debian project is actually built on ideals rather than a personality, and nVidia's closed source proprietary driver software conflicts with the Debian Social Contract. Debian does make a reasonable compromise between usability and the ideals without which the Debian project is meaningless.

With Ubuntu's boot splash screen--there's no excuse for it. All it does is hide the user from "scary" information that might actually help them understand/troubleshoot their systems--at best--and at worst it makes the system nonfunctional. And for what? So it can copy Windows in its equally "helpful" hiding of boot-up feedback?

Personally, I avoid nVidia video cards when I can. Besides the issues with open software ideals, the way the nVidia driver works is just plain atrocious. It messes with the kernel, which is ridiculous (none of the open source drivers do so), it ignores a bunch of standard xorg settings, and does things in completely different ways.

[Manchunian]

I agree with absolutely everything you just said. Oh how I wish the open source drivers were good enough for my kids to be able to enjoy Planet Penguin racer! I'd never bother with Nvidia again!
PS - I hate silent booting too! Yuck!

[techieMoe]

Originally Posted by elija

I also have the choice of running Lenny which I am convinced stands for Live Environment?

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet. Debian names their releases based on characters from the movie Toy Story. Previous names can be found here.

[techieMoe]

Originally Posted by IsaacKuo

Ironically, I avoid Ubuntu because I'm too lazy to go through the effort to keep it working. With Debian Stable, it just plain works and I don't have to deal with some Ubuntu update breaking things or changing the behavior on software I'm already familiar with.

I have to ask, but can you be more specific about what "breaks" you've experienced updating Ubuntu? I've never had an update from an official repository break any of my installs. Changing behavior, yes, but never breaking something.