[techieMoe]

Practical Technology » KDE: It’s time for a fork

I respect Stephen J. Vaughn-Nichols. He's been writing about Linux for a while. He knows what he's talking about. I agree wholeheartedly that those who are comfortable with KDE 3.5 are pretty much between a rock and a hard place.

I see where KDE is going (with 4.x) and I don't like it. Neither does he. We're faced with the unfortunate choices of either just sucking it up, warts and all, going to GNOME, or searching for some other desktop to use for the indefinite future.

What surprises me about the article is the amount of nastiness he's received for *gasp* questioning the judgment of the developers of KDE. Since when are developers infallible? Gnome developers pissed me off when they decided to push the concept of "spatial browsing" on me in Nautilus. Now KDE developers have done the same with this buggy eye-candy monstrosity that is KDE 4.

Developers are people, and people make mistakes. What's wrong with pointing out what you see as a glaring mistake?

[fingal]

It's a worry because I use KDE 3.* and like it very much. I've got used to navigating around it, and this feels very natural to me. I'm not opposed to seeing fundamental changes, as long as they enhance my experience as an end user.

I'm not a developer so 'getting the job done' isn't really my thing, but I suppose getting hopelessly lost inside an over-designed GUI could obstruct me quite a lot. I don't like Gnome, so I would struggle to decide which desktop environment to switch to.

Passions run high in the world of FOSS! It's something which has turned me away from so called 'geek culture' a bit. And no, a little + sign isn't a good way to select a file; that sounds bonkers to me.

[ozar]

Thanks for the link.

It's clear that Stephen J. Vaughn-Nichols and I are on the same side of the fence because he's saying exactly what I've been saying in my thread titled KDE4: it still needs lots of work!

I've preferred KDE and used it rather than Gnome for my last 8 years of using Linux, but even after several months of running various versions of KDE4.x and trying very hard to get used to it and to actually like it, I'm constantly tempted to make the move to Gnome on a permanent basis. That said, I'm also trying hard to give KDE4 a fair chance, so when each new beta come out I move over to it looking for improvements. I'm anxiously awaiting the official 4.1 release at the end of July so that I can get a better feel for where KDE4 is really headed.

Like was said in my thread mentioned above, I'm seriously thinking that it might be version 4.2 before KDE4 becomes a full replacement for the classic 3.5.x series. Then on the other hand, maybe KDE4 will never be able to replace KDE3.5.x for all users.

[bigtomrodney]

I've read a lot of Stephen's articles before and they are often quite interesting. I think he might like a bit of this kind of article though.

Forks aren't the bad news people think they are. They are just a period of uncertainty so I guess that's the fear really. Look at x.org - more life since it split from xfree. The same goes for Compiz. It was considered a closed shop until Beryl forked. Now we have the two communities working together on some of the most exciting technology in that field.

With this whole KDE4 debacle I'm really starting to think I won't talk about it anymore. A lot of mistakes have been made but it seems to me that the majority of the mistakes have been marketing mistakes. There was so much hope that the developers put undue hype around KDE4, then inadvertantly put themselves under time constraints. I think the main dissapointment is that we were so used to such a stable KDE platform that we feel like we've stepped backwards.

Maybe it'll be 4.2. Maybe it'll be 4.5. But I'm going to wait this one out and see where we go with it. I know Aaron Seigo has had a lot of abuse over the move. I read his blog everytime it was updated for the last year or so and now it seems he's had to make it private - from what I gather due to the enormity of negative feedback.

With that echoing in my mind I've decided that these guys might be right or might be wrong, but I'd prefer to stand in support of them rather than pass more criticism their way. It's too easy as a non-user and non-contributor to forget how much work these guys are putting into KDE4.

[techieMoe]

Originally Posted by bigtomrodney

With that echoing in my mind I've decided that these guys might be right or might be wrong, but I'd prefer to stand in support of them rather than pass more criticism their way. It's too easy as a non-user and non-contributor to forget how much work these guys are putting into KDE4.

Although I'm inclined to agree, it's also possible to put tons of work and hard effort into a bad project. Think about how many developers worked on Microsoft Bob, or made software for the Nokia N-Gage. Even the most talented and hard-working developers can make mistakes, and sometimes dedicate themselves to the wrong thing.

[bigtomrodney]

Originally Posted by techieMoe

Although I'm inclined to agree, it's also possible to put tons of work and hard effort into a bad project. Think about how many developers worked on Microsoft Bob, or made software for the Nokia N-Gage. Even the most talented and hard-working developers can make mistakes, and sometimes dedicate themselves to the wrong thing.

A point well made Moe, I won't contend that at all. I guess I just wanted to say that I'll have to bear them out on this one and see if that is the case.

I'm not a fan of Plasma at all. I think I could be but at the moment and in it's current application it's not for me. I only mention this because I from what I've read around the usual news sites and techblogs is that that's the main culprit. For me though the biggest mistake was the hype and marketing. KDE4 was announced as far back as 2005 if I recall correctly. It seemed like an eternity of talking to the point everyone wanted to see something of it. KDE-look had a KDE4 Brainstorm section for a long time with all sorts of ideas in mock-up form. So when it came to coding everybody wanted to see the finished product. Look at the 4.0 release; it was pushed back and back until when it finally released it seemed that it was halfway in to get some of the developers into gear and halfway to make people believe that it actually was going to be released.

That early, rough release probably hurt KDE4 more than anything else. If we were looking at what is now 4.1 as a first 4.0 we might be more sympathetic to them.

Anyway I know this is a subject that we'll all have pretty strong feelings on. This is only my opinion though I could understand a fork if one happened. I'll just try bearing with these guys for the time being. I can't complain...I'm using Gnome anyway now

[techieMoe]

Originally Posted by bigtomrodney

That early, rough release probably hurt KDE4 more than anything else. If we were looking at what is now 4.1 as a first 4.0 we might be more sympathetic to them.

Agreed. I'm not against a complete redesign, if it gets released in full working form. Had my first impression been 4.1 (and it's as stable as they claim) I might feel differently. Or at least be more lenient.

Anyway I know this is a subject that we'll all have pretty strong feelings on. This is only my opinion though I could understand a fork if one happened. I'll just try bearing with these guys for the time being. I can't complain...I'm using Gnome anyway now

True. I use Ubuntu on my laptop so I'm kind of insulated from the KDE world at large.

[ozar]

Originally Posted by bigtomrodney

That early, rough release probably hurt KDE4 more than anything else.

Bingo!

If it had truly been ready for release, we might be hearing a different story from lots of the folks that are complaining. Of course, there would have been some that still didn't like it because it constituted such a drastic change from what they were familiar with. As things stand now, the users are all in what feels like a giant virtual test lab with all the users being the proverbial "experimental" rats.

We all know though that good things do sometimes come from those labs, so hopefully not too many users will be irreparably harmed along the way.

[Oxygen]

Are there no plans to continue development of 3.5? It seems silly to me to just throw it out the window.

[ozar]

Originally Posted by Oxygen

Are there no plans to continue development of 3.5? It seems silly to me to just throw it out the window.

From what I understand, the KDE folks plan to totally drop it as soon as KDE4 is capable of replacing it, so if nobody takes on the task of forking it, I guess it's dead in the water.