IE W3C Compliance problem and support for Linux from the world in general

[piojoblanco]

Ok, This is not a question.. but more of a way for me to vent some steam.

I don't like windows. I hate Bill Gates. But it seems that he is still causing problems for those of us that use Linux. M$ is making Internet Explorer more and more compliant, but it still lags way behind. Firefox is much more complient with W3C standards than Internet Explorer, but the problem is.. web designers are forced to cater to the users of Internet Explorer because 80% of users use Internet Explorer.

So, now, many web pages don't display properly in Firefox, not because it is not as good as Internet Explorer, but because Firefox is doing the right thing and being as compliant as possible with W3C standards.

For instance, I went to AT&T website last night contemplating changing my ISP. I knew that the offices were closed, so I could not call. So, I initiated a chat session with a live agent. And, before I could get my question typed, the agent responded telling me that she could not assist me becuase I was not using a supported browser. She said only Internet Explorer was supported browser and their system could not properly record information for my account. She refused to answer my questions. Seems that their system could not log the information from a non-Internet Explorer browser, so she refused to assist me.

Intuit TurboTax also does not render properly if you don't use IE.
FASFA applicatoin website renders properly as far as I could tell, but warns you that only Windows and MAC operating systems should be used to apply for Federal Aid on their site.

What's up with that? Why is the world telling me I have to use M$?

But, it's like that all over.. most web pages are designed with Internet Explorer users in mind, and we that use the other 'more compliant' browsers suffer. Or, because we use a system that's not Windows or MAC.

When the internet was first made available to the public, was it for soley WINDOWS or MAC?
So, why are these the controlling forces in internet use as a whole?

M$ needs to make IE as compliant as Firefox and Opera and other browsers that try to be compliant, in order to make the Internet a friendlier place for all users.

And, major companies and website designers need to wake up and smell the Penguins ..


Is there anything that can be done to push this.. to make both understand that LINUX is here and NOW, and is not some VIDEO GAME that we install to play around with.

How do we demand support? ( I guess there were a few questions involved anyway.. )

[oz]

Welcome to the forums!

I've always heard it said that "good things come to those that wait". Another one often heard is, "patience is a virtue". Maybe those will apply with your subject matter as well.

Either way, best of luck with it, and hope you continue to have fun with Linux.

[piojoblanco]

Welcome to the forums!

I've always heard it said that "good things come to those that wait". Another one often heard is, "patience is a virtue". Maybe those will apply with your subject matter as well.

Either way, best of luck with it, and hope you continue to have fun with Linux.

I was wondering if there was some sort of action that Linux users could take as a community.
Power in numbers sort of thing...
But are there enough Linux users to make a difference?

Can we get whoever controls this sort of thing to crack down on M$ to get them to make Interenet Explorer more compliant with W3C standards, thereby prompting web designers to code their sites in compliance with W3C standards? Bill Gates is the key ( i hate to say it ) to solving most of our internet compatibility problems.

Bill Gates provides a browser that the majority of users use.
That browser is lacking in compliance with W3C Standards.
Web Designers must decide whether they are going to design their websites to be in compliance with WC3 standards or with Bill Gates standards. Since most users use IE, and it is so much trouble to configure sites to multiple standards, most designers design towards IE users.
If Internet Explorer was made to match the compliance of other browsers available, non-IE users would not have so much trouble.

Why do we have a STANDARD in place, if Bill Gates is going to ignore it.
Is there a way for those standards to be enforced?
Does Bill Gates have control over the Internet?
I know, no one really 'Controls the Internet'.

I guess the only way for this to be resolved is to convince the general public not to use Internet Explorer. Get everyone to uninstall it. ( I hear you can do that now without affecting the system )
And then maybe M$ would get the message. I have tried my best to get everyone I know to switch to Firefox on their PC's, especially when IE breaks.

Spread the word... DOWN WITH IE!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bemk]

When I develop a web page I only use FF and Opera to test it with. I know that next to IE those are the most commonly used browsers, and I also run the W3C validator. This makes sure my html is correct to the W3C standard. I don't really care about IE, since I know that when I keep it simple, the views won't differ too much (although I had a struggle with a web site in IE, almost 9 months back now).

Maybe you can set up your own website for the community of W3C supporters and send an E-mail to Micro$oft every time you find out something new they've screwed up. I really hope IE8 is doing better by the way.

I don't think they will however so that means we need to promote FF a bit more, so more people will use it and sites have to be developed more for the FF browser (you can by the way make a Java Script which redirects you to a browser specific page as a developer). I hope W3C has enough influence though to get IE on the right path.

[elija]

We make it work in FF and Opera. That will get most browsers, then we use conditional CSS for IE. That gets most users.

Easy really.

However none of the browsers out there are fully compliant, they all have their own little quirks. Still speaking as a veteran of the V4 Browser Wars you web designers these days don't know you're born!

[bigtomrodney]

From using IE8 beta as part of my Windows 7 trial, I notice that it comes in standards compliant mode by default rather than the legacy 'broken' IE approach. It also offers you the opportunity to allow updates to the legacy mode for sites that don't work in the compliant mode.

[piojoblanco]

From using IE8 beta as part of my Windows 7 trial, I notice that it comes in standards compliant mode by default rather than the legacy 'broken' IE approach. It also offers you the opportunity to allow updates to the legacy mode for sites that don't work in the compliant mode.

That's great... so maybe the web can be fixed over time and get rid of all of that code for non-compliant browsers I understand there are some web-designers that allow for all browser support in their coding. I myself have done some web design... I got tired to trying to make things work in all browsers though... but the truth is.. most commercial websites are still geared towards IE non-compliant code.

I originally said 80% of users use IE, that was old data.. but the numbers are still high.. I think it's more like 46% now and 26% FF.

[Cabhan]

No, IE is still way above 50%, I believe now. Firefox has made huge strides against IE's market share, but let's not start inflating anything just yet.

The reason that most people use IE is that IE is the default web browser on their computer. I don't believe that there is anything beyond that. So that being the case, what can we do?

Well, I can certainly tell you that modern web developers don't like IE. Most of these websites that don't support Firefox tend to be very old, and also tend to not be targeting a very broad base. I can tell you from experience that Yahoo Mail, for instance, used to not support FF at all (you couldn't write rich text e-mails from it), while now, it does.

IE has slowly been coming around to being standards-compliant because modern web developers hate the fact that it's not. When you combine this with increasing competition from Firefox due to greater awareness of security problems, I suspect that IE will begin having to make drastic improvements. Hell, we've already seen this: compare IE7 with IE6.

[Bemk]

Let's hope the release of IE 8 will be even more aimed at the standards.

[piojoblanco]

Yes, let's hope that IE 8 turns things around. They say that Windows 7 will be the 'Linux Killer'. It may cut down on computers sold with Linux, but it won't deter many (if any) that install themselves.

I just installed the Trial version of Windows 7.. I don't like it any better than I do VISTA. But maybe I am allowing my views of Microsoft to get in the way.

We have a lot of comments about the Compliance issue.. but what does everyone think about businesses that ASSUME that everyone is suppose to use WINDOWS or MAC?

Any comments.... or anyone with a similar issue with businesses on the web?

I am curious to read about other's bad experiences because company sites say they can't support you because you are using Linux.