Looking for General Opinions

[rokytnji]

From a non computing background perspective. Also a self taught Linux user (with the support from The Linux Communty.

My Take is. A migrating Windows user only requires 2 things.
1.Patience
2. Not be afeared of asking Questions in a precise and concise manner.

Wait a sec. I mean 3 things. No maybe four. Wouldn't hurt to have more.

3. A brain (which functions in a reasonable way)
4. A sense of humor.

My entry into being proficient using Linux came from my in built desire/mule headeness to not let anything keep me from running the fine distros I choose to run. I figure. If so and so can do it. He can't be any better than me.

Redhat and Suse and PCLoS and Fedora and CentOS.
I can't comment because I tend to steer clear of rpm Dstros. Just personal choice.(something not available in Mac or Windows from what I know)

Debian, Ubuntu,Mepis (which I think is a fine beginner Distro also for a New Linux User), Mint, and dare I say it. Puppy Linux and all its varients. Are good places to start for apt based Distros(Puppy is coming out with a Debian and Ubuntu forked Puppy Distro)

[GNU-Fan]

the linux world needs a more open presence because you would be surprised how many people have never even heard of linux
in my own home town (almost 3000 people) I am one of 6 people who use linux ( and I introduced them to it)

Well, 6 people is the perfect number to found a LinuxUserGroup.
On one Sunday per month invite your fellow townspeople to come to your garage with their PCs and beer in case they need a helping hand. If they complain about how infected their Windows with worms have become, pull out an install CD with a better OS (TM) to their rescue.

[Snoots]

Rokyt, I actually did LOL at your post. Remembers the Spanish Inquisition skit.

I totally agree GNU-Fan. A small starter group is a great way to get things going. We had such back in the day before the first IBM PC hit the market. Local user groups are great for helping to get people introduced to Linux, and six people is a good-size starter group.

I also totally agree with your take on Micro$oft; wrote a blog on it in fact. The absurdist pricing of their software-- plus the added "insult to injury" of their new EULA, is causing people to re-consider Linux-- especially if all they ever do is email, internet or word processing (ie, NOT tied in to hard-core Windows programs such as Adobe CS4 or Maya).

Windows 7 Home is definitely not the answer for the computer community-- pro is needed by almost everyone these days-- yet even upgrading to Windows 7 Pro brings a $200 bill ($200 for an UPDGRADE?).

The further insult that such a price tag is for ONE computer-- a situation enforced by excessively strict corporate attitude that I can only describe (forgive my bluntness) as being paranoid and uh... posterior posessive?... leads us to the conclusion that Micro$oft is totally out of touch with the computer community both financially and realistically (do they really think people are going to fork up $200 per computer to upgrade to Windows 7)?

I notice that they DO have a "family pack" Windows 7... three installations of Windows 7 Home for $149. Upgrade, not full install. Do we see any of those packages at local stores? Nuuuuuu...

Don't even get me started. I'm a Windows user by force, not choice, and I have no doubt whatsoever that the monopolistic tactics of that company was the primary thing that kept better OS's from getting a firm hold. Despite that, the progress of Linux is admirable.

I personally do believe, as a consultant with almost 3 decades of experience (with an idea of how the average end-user thinks), the Linux community would better serve itself if everyone would get together and decide on a community-accepted basic User Interface, so that Linux presents a more unified and standardized face to the general public. Failure to do so is without doubt part of what is holding Linux back.

A standardized UI would by no means limit Linux. Once users loaded and installed the "basic" Linux core package (note I stress THE, not "their choice of several")... then they could choose to install whatever additional add-ons they like, be it server modules, technician packages, whatever. But to appeal to the user masses, one must present a unified, agreeable, consistent front. "An army divided against itself cannot stand."

This goal would require the Linux Community to get together, drop the egos (there are always egos, in any community), drop the personal agendas and goals... and cooperate / compromise / agree on a basic distro to represent the Linux project to everyone, world wide. It should (like Windows) contain a basic browser, office package, media player, games, etc, so that people have SOMETHING to start with.

Beyond that, Red Hat and Suse and others can add to that-- throwing in tools and goodies in different packages that can be tailored to specific need. Want to set up a server? Here's Apache (or whatever). Want to work on Linux itself? Here's the core coding and compiler packages.

But IMO, as a newb to Linux but an experienced professional in the computer field... if the Linux community ever wishes to de-throne Windows, it is going to have to unify within its own ranks and come up with an "industry standard" and widely accepted basic distro package that everyone supports. That is what will attract people to the community, is what will make Linux easy and turn-key to install, is what will start taking additional market share by chunks. When newcomers look for Linux, they should find: LINUX as the core system (including THE accepted UI and basic tools)... with Linux add-ons to suit their specific needs.

It's much easier to pick up LINUX and install it, then install additional add on packages, than it is being a newbie and seeing:

Please choose one of the following dozen distros, and good luck.

; )

Just my 2 cents worth. Not soapboxing; simply reporting a viewpoint from the standpoint of new, non-tech users who simply want to install an OS and have it run right out of the box. Turn-key is THE key.

[rokytnji]

if the Linux community ever wishes to de-throne Windows,

Naw. We make our money off of rubes who bring their Windows boxes to us to fix em. I luv Windows.

[Snoots]

LOL LOL. That's TWO... ;D

Actually, good point and let me clarify that: if the Linux community ever wishes to de-throne Micro$oft...

Windows is a valid OS, just like Linux, just like Apple, just like BSD. It's how it's marketed and priced that is the royal pain. Well, there are lots of other royal pains about Windows as well (backward incompatibility, shoddy networking tools, and security holes being just a few...), but this blog server only has so much space available.

But Micro$oft is a monopolistic company, that despite being adjudged such repeatedly, on two continents, continues to employ monopolistic and customer-abusive business practices on a regular basis. Someone really needs to do something about that. The United States Federal Court and their hand-slap ("bought"?) mentality surely failed to do so. Don't even get me started. Oops, too late.

(BTW, you guys are great. I'm a brash newb and I'm already, in one day, starting to feel like part of the family. I haven't had that feeling in like... years... Thanks for your welcome and hospitality.)

[rokytnji]

Just one last point from me.

Linux is the mother of invention. You can have a buddy lets say. His box is Pentium
II with 256mb of ram,20 gig HD and he is running Windows 98,ME,2000, or a broken XP.

You can carve up his hardrive. Shrink Windows partition. Boot up a Linux Live CD. Install to another partition you made when you carved up Windows with the Live CD. You can install a bootloader. A modern browser is included. Burning Software, Youtube and Java Support also. And his box will fly depending on your skill set with what you choose and do to his computer.

I sold Last week a IBM 390E running AntiX wirelessly that was my laptop when I first got into Linux to a Guy that liked that Laptop so much for what it could do he gave me $100.00 for it. Not bad for a PII Lappy. And He is computer illiterate but just wants to get online. His first Computer experience. Linux. Probably have a easier time than a Windows Programmer as he has no bad habits to break.



You can take that

[Snoots]

That's fair, and I think in general Ubuntu has taken up that mantle. (To the chagrin of some.)

That has me curious. What about Ubuntu causes some folks upset? I've heard that, but don't know specifically (I could and have read numerous websites, but often individual feedback from folks like you is far more informative).

However, I also have some reservations about advocating Mint, precisely because of the inclusion of non-free software. It means glossing over the ethical questions of freedom and the use of proprietary and patent-encumbered code.

I am one of those folks who is not a total advocate of the GNU. Having played the part of both end-user and corporate professional, I realize that there is application for both in the world. In areas where GNU can apply (of which I think Linux is the foremost example) it's great. But I know of specific areas (most often found in vertical market software) where the application of Open Source and the "free software" concept is simply unrealistic-- and even impossible.

As with most things in life, there is an area of moderation and balance. I am a great fan of free software, open source and GNU where such is possible. Where that is not possible, it falls to proponents of those systems to live and let live and realize there are areas where proprietary software becomes essential. As with most areas of life, there is no one hard-fast rule that applies to everyone, in every situation. There is almost always room for balance, acceptance, and reality as opposed to totalitarian application of personal standards.

Micro$oft takes proprietary to an extreme. Others take GNU and the "free software" concept to an extreme. I personally believe the answer lies somewhere in between.

(Just the facts, ma'am: I do feel I'm somewhat qualified in this opinion. I have worked in the corporate and proprietary software market, but also started my career in the "freeware" and "shareware" industry. There is something to be said on both sides of the issue... and room in this world for both kinds of software, so long as people avoid taking things to the extreme in either direction. Alas... they always do, and we wind up with companies like Micro$oft tilting the scales.)

[Snoots]

You make a very good point Roky. In truth, I watched a (somewhat poor) "documentary" on Linux day before yesterday, and one of the things that impressed me was a community of Linux users gathering in a local library to help newbs get Linux installed on their system. They had everything from the latest gamer PCs (at that time) to the most off-the-wall wierdo systems one could find... and they were installing Linux on all of them.

As a guy who started on an early digital PET... that was most impressive to watch.

[reed9]

That has me curious. What about Ubuntu causes some folks upset? I've heard that, but don't know specifically (I could and have read numerous websites, but often individual feedback from folks like you is far more informative).

Why Does Everyone Hate Ubuntu? — Datamation.com

From what I've seen, the complaints against Ubuntu boil down to three main themes. 1) Arrogant geek syndrome, ie, Ubuntu is dumbing down linux. 2) Victimized geek syndrome, ie, Ubuntu is a bully using their position to force changes they want. (See new notification system re: 9.04 Jaunty) and 3) Ubuntu doesn't contribute back upstream enough.

But I know of specific areas (most often found in vertical market software) where the application of Open Source and the "free software" concept is simply unrealistic-- and even impossible.

I'm simply don't have enough information to really comment. It seems, in my unprofessional opinion, that there is no fundamental reason free software should be an impossible goal in certain areas. Regardless, I am not a strict purist - mostly because when morals clash with convenience, morals tend to lose. If I want to use my wireless card, I need non-free software or to buy a different computer. I do have flash installed, I use non-free multimedia codecs. When given my druthers, I choose free over non-free in most cases. I use the radeon driver and sacrifice 3D acceleration for my ATI card. I bought the ATI card over Nvidia because they are more supportive of open source software. I backup my CDs in Ogg Vorbis over mp3, etc.

I don't begrudge other people the freedom to choose to do so either. But therein lies the rub. They have to know what is going on to be able to actually choose. In pointing new folks to Mint, they are simply not confronted with the issue and in that sense not choosing, but having the status quo thrust upon them.

Before ripping that DVD to h.264 and illegally distributing it over the internet, I'd like them to at least know there is a high quality, unencumbered, royalty free option in Ogg Theora.

[Snoots]

Thought you folks might enjoy reading this:

(add http here) elfclan.ning.com/profiles/blogs/how-linux-could-save-your-hide

(This system wouldn't allow me to post the direct URL because I "haven't posted 15 messages". LOL. But that blog relates directly to this thread, so I think it pretty valid.)

Again, my thanks to all of you for your help. You all were most welcoming and friendly. : )