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I personally don't use Ubuntu which was my first distro, or even a login manager in Arch or Debian, because it refuses to boot from a USB drive unless you ...
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  1. #11
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    I personally don't use Ubuntu which was my first distro, or even a login manager in Arch or Debian, because it refuses to boot from a USB drive unless you burn it to a CD first, and if there's a problem with anything running in X (or anything at all), there's no way to get information on the offending program. I also couldn't "learn" Linux with it, as Ubuntu left nothing to be desired by a new, curious user beyond learning about the basic file hierarchy and the basics of Aptitude and Synaptic.

    Most of the programs mentioned in the first post can be made to run in anything from DSL to Slackware, even an LFS system, with or without them in any repository. Beyond such shallow issues as I mentioned in my last statement, there is no reason to not choose one distro over another, because it all runs on the same kernel (if a different version), the same set of GNU tools, and has all of the same source code available for it. While Ubuntu doesn't work for me, it will possibly work for the next guy, who is entitled to use it, or else hate it and move on.

  2. #12
    Just Joined! rm-rf's Avatar
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    That's great but...

    Having a good user-friendly OS is important, However the problem is (atleast in my mind it is) that Ubuntu sometimes goes a little too far with this. For example: vim is a very powerful text editing program for programmers, most distributions have it pre-installed, but Ubuntu doesn't, and even when you do get it, it is a very stripped down version. Also it is very different from most linux distributions, some people even say that it shouldn't be counted as a Linux distro because it tries to be too much like windows. Personally I like that they are trying to make Linux easier for the average user, but taking away gimp was taking it way to far.

  3. #13
    Linux Engineer MASONTX's Avatar
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    It's all about what will fit in 700MB, and Gimp is one of the first things I add.
    Registered Linux user #526930

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm-rf View Post
    Having a good user-friendly OS is important, However the problem is (atleast in my mind it is) that Ubuntu sometimes goes a little too far with this. For example: vim is a very powerful text editing program for programmers, most distributions have it pre-installed, but Ubuntu doesn't, and even when you do get it, it is a very stripped down version. Also it is very different from most linux distributions, some people even say that it shouldn't be counted as a Linux distro because it tries to be too much like windows. Personally I like that they are trying to make Linux easier for the average user, but taking away gimp was taking it way to far.
    Preinstalled software is not an issue - you can install it:

    Code:
    aptitude install vim gimp
    I honestly don't see why people get their knickers in a twist when butnut remove a few non essential programs which can always be installed later... removing support for dial up modems from the livecd - which they did a few years back - was a far greater issue. Worry about the direction butnut is headed in, rather than trivial issues such as packages being left off the livecd. It's a derivative distro that doesn't even market itself as a "Linux"...

  5. #15
    Just Joined! rm-rf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
    Preinstalled software is not an issue - you can install it:

    Code:
    aptitude install vim gimp
    I honestly don't see why people get their knickers in a twist when butnut remove a few non essential programs which can always be installed later... removing support for dial up modems from the livecd - which they did a few years back - was a far greater issue. Worry about the direction butnut is headed in, rather than trivial issues such as packages being left off the livecd. It's a derivative distro that doesn't even market itself as a "Linux"...
    Perhaps because it is really annoying to sit down at a machine and not know if it has a program on it, that all the other distros have on there already.

    I mean there are some things you HAVE to have if you want to call it a linux distro, and vim is one of them.

    Saying that vim not being pre-installed is not a big deal, is like saying that a car not having air conditioning is no big deal because you can just have it installed.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm-rf View Post
    Perhaps because it is really annoying to sit down at a machine and not know if it has a program on it, that all the other distros have on there already.
    Not for me, though I'm a debian user and wouldn't touch butnut with a ten foot pole. I tend to perform absolutely minimal installs from the small images (180MB) and work up from there doing most of the installation and configuration from the terminal, if something is missing it can be installed quickly with apt.

    The problem with butnut is that they are constrained by the 700MB livecd format. So everything has to fit on that one disc and provide a usable live session system. It's not easy to achieve and it probably does get to the stage where they are removing packages just to fit other packages on. As the distro gets more and more bloated, it's inevitable that terminal based apps and tools are going to be the first casualties.



    Quote Originally Posted by rm-rf View Post
    I mean there are some things you HAVE to have if you want to call it a linux distro, and vim is one of them.
    Or emacs, or vi or nano, etc, etc, etc? vim is actually down to preference... but for a livecd aimed at noobs? I really don't see vim as a requirement and for those that know how to use vim or want it
    Code:
    aptitude install vim
    Quote Originally Posted by rm-rf View Post
    Saying that vim not being pre-installed is not a big deal, is like saying that a car not having air conditioning is no big deal because you can just have it installed.
    Not the best analogy? Installing a program like vim is not exactly rocket science.

    Code:
    root@debian:/# aptitude install vim
    The following NEW packages will be installed:
      vim vim-runtime{a} 
    0 packages upgraded, 2 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
    Need to get 7,347 kB of archives. After unpacking 28.6 MB will be used.
    Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?]

  7. #17
    Just Joined! rm-rf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
    Not for me, though I'm a debian user and wouldn't touch butnut with a ten foot pole. I tend to perform absolutely minimal installs from the small images (180MB) and work up from there doing most of the installation and configuration from the terminal, if something is missing it can be installed quickly with apt.

    The problem with butnut is that they are constrained by the 700MB livecd format. So everything has to fit on that one disc and provide a usable live session system. It's not easy to achieve and it probably does get to the stage where they are removing packages just to fit other packages on. As the distro gets more and more bloated, it's inevitable that terminal based apps and tools are going to be the first casualties.




    Or emacs, or vi or nano, etc, etc, etc? vim is actually down to preference... but for a livecd aimed at noobs? I really don't see vim as a requirement and for those that know how to use vim or want it
    Code:
    aptitude install vim

    Not the best analogy? Installing a program like vim is not exactly rocket science.

    Code:
    root@debian:/# aptitude install vim
    The following NEW packages will be installed:
      vim vim-runtime{a} 
    0 packages upgraded, 2 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
    Need to get 7,347 kB of archives. After unpacking 28.6 MB will be used.
    Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?]
    and if you don't have root permissions?

  8. #18
    Linux Engineer MASONTX's Avatar
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    Vim may not be included, but it does have a text editor. If you prefer vim, it is easy to install, just as I prefer gimp, so install it.
    Registered Linux user #526930

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm-rf View Post
    and if you don't have root permissions?
    I'm not sure I follow you... but presumably you're the one installing the distro so you should easily be able to log in as root using the root password you set up at the start or using sudo? If it's just from the livecd - it's years since I've used one, but if I recall correctly, they are set up with passwordless sudo.

    I'm pretty certain that the kind of person that wants to use vim is going to have root permissions...

  10. #20
    Just Joined! rm-rf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MASONTX View Post
    Vim may not be included, but it does have a text editor. If you prefer vim, it is easy to install, just as I prefer gimp, so install it.
    and if you don't have root permissions, and can't find someone who does? (I find myself in that situation all the time) Besides,
    it's not just vim, it is everything that an OS should have on it's command line that Ubuntu doesn't, even if it is easy to install vim, it isn't easy to install all the programs that Ubuntu should have already had on there.

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