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Originally Posted by MikeTbob Every time I think I will drop Gentoo and get any other distro,,,I am reminded that many distros do not use the latest versions of software ...
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  1. #11
    Penguin of trust elija's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeTbob View Post
    Every time I think I will drop Gentoo and get any other distro,,,I am reminded that many distros do not use the latest versions of software as Gentoo does. Kernels are usually a couple of versions behind and so forth.
    Accoding to kernel.org (and it ought to know) the very latest stable kernel is 3.5.4 and Fedora is running 3.5.3-1 which is pretty close. I've never had the time to really give Gentoo a trial so I don't have the experience to compare them.

    Quote Originally Posted by griven
    And then you also consider how hard it is to get things installed on other distros now that you are used to Gentoo. IMO it is much easier to install drivers in Gentoo.
    Ubuntu and Mint also make it obscenely easy but it is harder to get some driver in obsessively free distros. Even then it's usually not that tricky if you think about what you are doing.
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    Linux Enthusiast gruven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elija View Post
    Ubuntu and Mint also make it obscenely easy but it is harder to get some driver in obsessively free distros. Even then it's usually not that tricky if you think about what you are doing.
    It took me several tries and finally downloading the official drivers for my Nvidia card in Ubuntu (and now I just do it manually for updates) from Nvidia.com to get my desktop working. In Gentoo, all I did was "emerge nvidia-drivers". Gentoo generally has more updated software, since you compile it yourself it is a bit easier to do.

    Binary distros suck for new hardware and obscure hardware. First you have to find the kernel you are running, then do some searches to find what they call the kernel source, and whether you need the headers or not, then find what they call the actual drivers you are using, etc.... Granted, I can do this without a GUI, but 90% of people can't. They will just give up. Getting my drivers installed for my Nvidia GTX 670 was a nightmare for me on Ubuntu. It was effortless on Gentoo. Ubuntu doesn't even have the drivers I need in any of their repos. I needed the new drivers, and they just didn't supply them (and the 670 has been out for a while, and Gentoo has had the drivers for it in the repo for a long while). That said, I did get it to work because of my experiences with Debian, but it was not simple or automatic. When the driver autoinstaller failed, it was just like, sorry, too bad for you and hung up in a loop of you need drivers but we can't find them but we are going to try to install the wrong ones anyway over and over.

    But we are getting off topic. I can't stand Gnome 3, lol.

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    oz
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    Back when KDE went south with their huge change by going from KDE3 to KDE4, I absolutely hated it. KDE4 eventually improved enough that I could live with it, though, and now I'm reasonably happy with it. So far, that has not happened at all with Gnome going from Gnome2 to Gnome3. I do continue checking back on it now and then, hoping that it has improved to a point that I can stick with it for longer than 20 to 30 minutes, but I find it simply too annoying in too many different ways.

    I've not given up on it quite yet, though...
    oz

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    Penguin of trust elija's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gruven View Post
    It took me several tries and finally downloading the official drivers for my Nvidia card in Ubuntu (and now I just do it manually for updates) from Nvidia.com to get my desktop working. In Gentoo, all I did was "emerge nvidia-drivers". Gentoo generally has more updated software, since you compile it yourself it is a bit easier to do.

    Binary distros suck for new hardware and obscure hardware. First you have to find the kernel you are running, then do some searches to find what they call the kernel source, and whether you need the headers or not, then find what they call the actual drivers you are using, etc.... Granted, I can do this without a GUI, but 90% of people can't. They will just give up. Getting my drivers installed for my Nvidia GTX 670 was a nightmare for me on Ubuntu. It was effortless on Gentoo. Ubuntu doesn't even have the drivers I need in any of their repos. I needed the new drivers, and they just didn't supply them (and the 670 has been out for a while, and Gentoo has had the drivers for it in the repo for a long while). That said, I did get it to work because of my experiences with Debian, but it was not simple or automatic. When the driver autoinstaller failed, it was just like, sorry, too bad for you and hung up in a loop of you need drivers but we can't find them but we are going to try to install the wrong ones anyway over and over.

    But we are getting off topic. I can't stand Gnome 3, lol.
    My experience with Ubuntu / Mint and the like has been:

    Install distro
    Update distro
    Use the Hardware Drivers application to install the recommended drivers.
    It all works

    Maybe my kit isn't new enough to cause a problem
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    oz
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    Quote Originally Posted by elija View Post
    To be fair, Gnome 3 is better than the last time I tried it and Fedora itself seems to be more stable but Gnome 3 is still pretty awful.
    Right... I'm posting this from the latest version of Gnome 3, and no matter how many times I try it, Gnome 3 feels far more click-oriented than any previous version of Gnome, and it feels to me like it comes with more of a learning curve than any of the other more popular desktop environments. In the end, I continue to find it very difficult to grow comfortable with it, so my guess is that it will never become my default desktop environment unless some big changes occur.
    oz

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    I like Fedora 17 even Rawhide, but i find there is a lot of bugs within 17 that shouldn't really exist. Like GRUB install will succeed but then on reboot it automatically is booting into grub rescue. Debian Testing/ Wheezy has the same problem. Which leads me to my point of that i currently running Debian Squeeze and can't see much point in changing to testing or Wheezy when GRUB2 won't configure probably on install, and Wheezy has GNOME 3, which i agree with you 100% on, its pretty but clunky and in the end i just end up installing MATE as its replacement.

    @elija: How can you say installing drivers on Ubuntu is easy? I try installing the open-source nvidia drivers and it is a CUI nightmare or even the proprietary nvidia drivers and again its a CUI nightmare. For both 90% of the time you have to remove the others required drivers. Which an minimum requires blacklisting them and rebuilding the initramfs.
    But i believe that, that is because they pre-install the nouveau driver for you and the version they pre-install doesn't always work with your graphics card. I find the distros (Mostly the distros that are more stable like Squeeze or Scientific Linux 6) that don't pre-install the GPU drivers less of a hassle as it doesn't require all the in and out of command (single-user mode).

    I am still a little dumbfounded by some distro's decisions. For example Red Hat is extending the support of GNOME2 to some ridiculous date, which i am all for. But it doesn't make sense they have the active fork MATE that they can transfer too, identical to GNOME2. Debian has done a similar thing, transferring their default DE to XFCE because the distro with GNOME3 won't fit on a single CD.

    I have read a lot of forums/ mail-lists that have said there reasoning is because MATE isn't as feature rich or stable as GNOME2, but isn't that a catch 22, how is something suppose to become stable or feature rich while under active development if no big open-source supporters back it up like Red Hat?

    I mean i have nothing against anyone i have mentioned above, but its just an observation and doesn't make sense. To me it seems like an excuse/temporary solution to whatever DE issues they have and not the solution that was intended...

    Note: I have no evidence that Red Hat or Debian developers think this, it is just what i have read on the web.

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    Penguin of trust elija's Avatar
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    As I have said previously, in Ubuntu the Nvidia drivers have always been as simple as:

    1. Go to Hardware drivers
    2. Choose the recommended drivers
    3. Push a button
    4. Wait a couple of minutes
    5. Reboot

    Mind you, I always choose my kit with Linux compatibility in mind so I may be avoiding a lot of issues at that stage.

    As to Mate, the solution to getting it adopted (if you want to use Mate as your desktop) is simply to support the distros that provide it. Among others that would currently be Mint and LMDE. If all goes well that should include Fedora by the time Fedora 18 comes out. I do kind of understand the distros that pride themselves on stability being a tad to use it by default reluctant at the moment.
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    oz
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    Quote Originally Posted by elija View Post
    To be fair, Gnome 3 is better than the last time I tried it and Fedora itself seems to be more stable but Gnome 3 is still pretty awful.
    Hello, elija

    I finally got around to upgrading my gnome box to version 3.6.1 earlier today and was quite disappointed to see that GDM is now a gnome-shell dependency. That's pretty much a deal killer for me because I always prefer to login on the command line, and then use the .xinitrc file for starting any DEs, or WMs. I'm still logging in from the command line and skipping GDM, but now there is no 'logout' option within gnome-shell. Instead, there is only a 'poweroff' or 'suspend' option. Nautilus has gone totally horrible as well. I'm seriously thinking about dropping all playing around with gnome for 3 or 4 years, then maybe trying it again to see if it's improving. For now, it's taken a definite turn for the worse, at least from my own perspective.

    While KDE4 continues to get better, I still enjoy using 'openbox only' setups the most.
    oz

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    Quote Originally Posted by oz View Post
    I'm still logging in from the command line and skipping GDM, but now there is no 'logout' option within gnome-shell. Instead, there is only a 'poweroff' or 'suspend' option.
    Oz,

    Is the binary gnome-session-quit available? You could always add a launcher that calls it. Not exactly pretty, but it should do it for you...

  10. #20
    oz
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    Quote Originally Posted by atreyu View Post
    Is the binary gnome-session-quit available? You could always add a launcher that calls it. Not exactly pretty, but it should do it for you...
    Good idea... and yes, that'll work until a better method of logging out comes along. Thanks for suggesting it!


    Quick Update: after doing a bit of searching on this matter, I found an edit that can be made to one of the gnome-shell files that will give users their logout option again:

    https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php..._the_user_menu

    Still not happy with the new Nautilus, or with GDM being a system requirement, now!
    Last edited by oz; 11-11-2012 at 04:12 AM.
    oz

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