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My journey into hell began about two months ago when I purchased a new HP laptop computer with Windows 8 preinstalled. The machine was fast, worked great and was cheap. ...
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  1. #1
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    The truth about Microsoft, OEM's and Linux


    My journey into hell began about two months ago when I purchased a new HP laptop computer with Windows 8 preinstalled. The machine was fast, worked great and was cheap. It has a quad core CPU, 8 gigabytes of Ram with AMD Radeon 7640G graphics that can use up to 4 gigabytes for video processing. (512 MB dedicated called discrete graphics). It played everything I threw at it on high settings with great frame rate such as the new Skyrim, Black Ops 2 and Far Cry 3. All for only 400 US dollars. I could not be happier with my purchase... Then I tried to dual boot Linux and the world came crashing down around me.

    I knew nothing of UEFI then or Microsoft's requirement of OEM's to use UEFI's Secure Boot feature with Windows 8. Now, I wish I had. Unified Extensible Firmware Interface - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    UEFI, or EFI is slated to be the replacement for Bios and it's been around for about 20 years. Trouble is, it's buggy and no one wanted to use it. There is good reason why OEM's have dragged their feet for years with this technology. It's still getting the kinks worked out. See here for more: EFI and Linux: the future is here, and it's awful - Matthew Garrett - YouTube

    So, I started studying this technology. I found out that what most new consumers have that come shipped with Windows 8 is a bios based system with a UEFI layer implemented, but not always. Some systems have a full UEFI with no Bios and some are UEFI based with a compatibility layer of Bios. Most of the time you wont know which type of system you are buying until it's too late as the OEM's who are Microsoft partners don't advertise this information. One things for certain, if you buy a PC with Windows 8 preinstalled you will have some type of UEFI and you will have Secure Boot enabled.

    Secure Boot acts as a protection feature that is supposed to ensure your system doesn't have any malware at the time of shipping. It works by checking keys in the operating system against hard coded keys in the UEFI. As these keys are signed by Microsoft, the system will not allow any other operating system to boot assuring you have a clean copy of Windows 8.

    For Non ARM based PC's Microsoft requires the user have the ability to disable Secure Boot. Once this is done, Windows 8 will boot normally although still using UEFI for it's IO to the hardware. On many machines you also have the ability to turn off UEFI and boot Windows from Legacy Bios mode.

    The problem with dual booting Linux either with UEFI off or Secure Boot disabled is it's not a proven technology that works well even if you do have a distro like Fedora or Ubuntu which supports UEFI and Secure Boot. I spent weeks fighting with getting Linux Mint to work properly in UEFI with Secure Boot disabled getting advise from top professionals - people who know UEFI well enough to write software for it. If the system was installed under UEFI in the first place, you can count on having your share of trouble.

    I contacted HP's tech support and went round and round trying to explain the issues to people reading scripts off a card and checking with their supervisor with every sentence because they simply lacked the ability to understand the issues. In the end, I was told HP doesn't give support for UEFI, and I should please contact Microsoft.

    Which is silly because Microsoft has nothing to do with the bios/UEFI in the machine, they only require it's use. In fact, you will not find one mention about UEFI in any HP documentation - at all. Not on the website, not in the advertising, not in the user Maintenance and Service Guide.

    I wanted answers. I went over the tech supports heads and spoke to someone (I wont mention her name) who is a: Case Manager for "HP AMS TCO Escalations Team" I'm not exactly sure what that team does but they are supposed to have better answers than tech support. She didn't but told me some interesting things.

    One reason all PC's that come preinstalled with a Microsoft operating system is cheaper than regular laptop is that Microsoft subsidizes the cost of the hardware. This amounts to being paid off in my book. It's a legal bribe.

    The case manager claims this is common knowledge and all OEM's have this same agreement with Microsoft. I asked if she could provide me a reference to this online and she said it's not anywhere online that she knows of. I'm not too surprised at this.

    If you read through the Windows 8 Hardware Certification Requirements for Client and Server Systems, found here: Windows Hardware Certification Requirements for Client and Server Systems , you will read about functionality you are supposed to have, that OEM's agree to - that you may not find in your system. The case manager avows all is good because after all, Microsoft signed off on the certification for these systems HP sells - Wonder how they can do this and still have the product pass Microsoft hardware certification? They are scratching each others backs there is no other way to put it. The case manager made a point to tell me several times that because Microsoft subsidizes these systems they do not have to allow support for dual booting with Non Microsoft systems or give UEFI support or even provide any documentation on UEFI.

    What's worse in my opinion is she made a point to state proudly they are very interested in Linux. They have several machines certified to work with Linux and they are even Platinum members of The Linux Foundation. It's not about software freedom folks, it's about Money. Many people fear Microsoft doing these things knowingly to keep people from dual booting with Windows 8. I even recently defended Microsoft's rights here because I thought the author went overboard: http://www.linuxforums.org/forum/cof...oundation.html

    After talking to this case manager, I'm not so sure I had all the facts. It certainly does look like there is something rotten in town and it's not looking good for dual boot users.

    The best solution to all of this is if you have such a machine make backup copies of your Recovery Disks, uninstall the system completely, and reinstall in Legacy Bios mode. You don't really need UEFI at this stage unless you have a hard drive larger than 2.2 TB's. If you want to do a clean non OEM bundled install you may be able to obtain a Windows 8 ISO from torrent of the disks here: MSDN Subscriber Downloads ( You will still have to re-install all your drivers manually) You cannot download from this site directly if you are not a MSDN partner but if you obtain such a disk you can legally use it because the product keys and CD keys are embedded in the systems bios. This will be true for all OEM machines that come preshipped with Windows 8. The installation disk will check your keys and activate your Windows as legal on first boot. In HP's case, this also will not void the warranty, your OEM may be different.

    Bottom line, if you plan to dual boot, don't buy a Windows 8 preinstalled machine or be prepared for headaches. Better yet, don't support these companies at all who have these shady business practices. Buy from a company who doesn't partner with Microsoft or build your own machine. I know for me, this HP will be the last I ever buy.
    Last edited by DarkPenquin; 02-05-2013 at 07:10 PM.
    Rubberman and zenwalker like this.

  2. #2
    Linux Guru Rubberman's Avatar
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    Thanks DP for your lovely detailed post! This is exactly why I will NEVER purchase a UEFI secure-boot-enabled system that has MS software pre-installed. I am also P.O.'d with Google for enabling the secure boot feature on Chromebooks, and have let them know that in no uncertain terms! Secure boot should be the user's option, or easily disabled by the original user, IMHO.
    Sometimes, real fast is almost as good as real time.
    Just remember, Semper Gumbi - always be flexible!

  3. #3
    Linux User zenwalker's Avatar
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    Unethical, at the least.
    "What you think about me is none of my business"
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    So Google and chromebooks are doing the secure boot thing too huh.. wow. I wonder if you can even disable it and if it had a Legacy Bios mode.

    Thanks for the kind words Rubberman. I know you took issue with how long my last post was but I can't seem to help myself. LOL I had to relate this story. People need to know what things are going on behind their backs. I have lost all respect I had for Microsoft and HP's business practices. They try to side step the issues, use double talk and spin. Both MS and HP contradict each other so you don't know who's telling the truth. I regret that I could not have recorded my 30 minute phone conversation with this case manager. I'd have surly posted it for the world to hear. She told me no one else is contacting HP about UEFI issues. I believe that had to be a lie. The HP forum is full of people with UEFI issues. She told me Linux users comprise only 1 percent of the market. I believe she got this figure from HP's Linux certified systems sales. They do have a few desktop systems made for Linux. She omitted the tons of systems running Linux for servers. She didn't seem to understand or would accept, that a large number of Windows users dual boot with Linux and more are doing it all the time as they get disillusioned with Microsoft. I reminded her tons of systems use Linux including Android phones and even Valve is advertising to Windows users to try Linux. You see a Big Tux when you go to download Steam and a note that says to Windows users, " Not running Linux yet?" LOL Welcome to Steam Once AAA games become common on Linux, Microsoft is going to crap a brick. This is likely a major reason why they might be trying to stop the ability to boot non Microsoft operating systems on commonly purchased PC hardware.

  6. #5
    Linux Guru Rubberman's Avatar
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    This is likely a major reason why they might be trying to stop the ability to boot non Microsoft operating systems on commonly purchased PC hardware.
    One of the reasons why I try to get people who want Linux to purchase systems from companies like ZaReason...
    Sometimes, real fast is almost as good as real time.
    Just remember, Semper Gumbi - always be flexible!

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    Never attribute to malice what can be accounted for by stupidity... or greed.

    I could put DarkPenguin to shame with a tirade on this very topic. I've seen this coming for many years: cheap or free PCs that do only what their makers want them to do, and call home at every opportunity with tracking statistics about your usage.

    I remember being astonished when the first asf files appeared. They can, and do, have embedded URLs that certain media players will contact every time you play the file. Being the naturally paranoid sort, I found this creepy, and that's where I first learned to avoid WMP in any incarnation.

    There was a thread on this forum recently about UEFI. I had never heard of it so I went poking around with google. What I discovered set my spidey-senses tingling. The UEFI website has this to say:
    Additional UEFI test tools are available in the Members Only area.
    WTF? Sounds like a pr0n site. They're selling "test tools"?

    So I downloaded the spec manual. "UEFI_2_3_1_Errata_C_final.pdf". 2224 (yes, 2 thousand) pages long, and all blather that comes from those sorts of committees that have poorly defined objectives.

    I thought, "This sounds like something a bloated corporation came up with to make everybody upgrade to something nobody understands."

    The original poster gave me some flak for my opinions, but it looks like I was correct in my cursory appraisal.

    My next PC, apparently, is going to have to be very carefuly chosen, and not just the best-looking deal from the local megamart. Sounds like a niche market opening up.
    zenwalker likes this.

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