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  1. #11

    Quote Originally Posted by Hiko
    Maybe a different perspective is needed here. Maybe this guy really did have problems installing Suse. Maybe he is not quite the techie some of us may be. But that is the point. Windows come preinstalled most times. Most folks don't have to figure it out. Please do not misunderstand, I am not endorsing Windows. I am endorsing listening and learning and using that knowledge to improve the product.
    Yes. And if I might add to your good comments:

    Terms (highly-context-based):

    'techie' -> someone who likes to do for themselves.
    'non-techie' -> someone who likes for someone else to do it for them.

    (Keep in mind this is meant only with regard to using computers, and is in NO way intended to insult anyone.)

    To a lot of us 'techies', the average 'non-techie' person may seem "lazy" in a way (with regard to using computers) - as in, "Hey, with just a little effort, you could learn this... (and be able to do it yourself)" - and, to an extent, this may be true - but, what we sometimes fail to recognize is, they "don't want to learn" (because they have been "trained" not to learn, not to understand the value of customization, not to realize the importance of "being able to do it yourself", [and a few other things I can't remember right now] - and they are accustomed to it). In a way, they are "spoiled" - they are used to having everything done for them (understand the context) - including most options and customizations. But think about this - there is nothing wrong with 'user-friendly'. I happen to be a "big believer" in 'user-friendly'.

    But probably the most important factor of all, 'non-techies' don't get the same satisfaction from "doing it yourself" like 'techies' do - what we are perfectly happy with, they look at with a totally different attitude.

    In my experience, I have found it to be extremely difficult to get a 'non-techie' to take a 'techie' outlook and interest in the way they use computers - 'techies' and 'non-techies' just don't see things the same way.

    CONSIDER: There are far more 'non-techies' than there are 'techies'...

    CONSIDER: 'non-techies' tend to not be inclined to accept new things that they do not believe are user-friendly enough - they do not want to have to do too much themselves - they have this funny notion that it is the programmer/developer's job to make everything more user-friendly -- and you know what, they are absolutely right! What they fail to understand sometimes, however, is that some knowledge is necessary if you are going to use a computer effectively (i.e. - "The programmer/developer can't do it all for you.")

    It is very advantageous for the Linux community to realize and accept the reality that along with 'stability' and 'security' must come 'user-friendly' if they want ??-million people with computers to take more of an interest in Linux/OpenSource.

    From the 'techie' point of view, we could ask all day "Can you not plainly see the value of OpenSource and the solid stability, maximum security, and wonderful customization capability of Linux?" - to which a 'non-techie' might say "No, I am not interested in that. I just want it to be user-friendly..." --- You have to be able to look at it from the 'non-techie' point of view.

    You are not going to be able to "convert" [most] 'non-techies' to Linux/OpenSource by [starting with] showing them [those things which 'techies' find to be the most important] -- the only way you are going to "catch their interest" and "get their attention" is on their terms - you have to make it user-friendly enough to get them interested enough to try it - and stay with it -- then, as they gain experience, they [hopefully] will start to see those benefits that 'techies' believe are so painfully obvious...

    You can berate Windows all you want, and it probably wont help the popularity of Linux one bit. But in as much as the Linux community can develop and deliver a "product" that will impress the ??-million 'non-techie' folks - on their terms - you will see exponential growth in the popularity of Linux.

    I am not endorsing Windows, either. Nor am I telling anyone not to dislike or berate Windows. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. And we all certainly have a lot of good things to say about Linux/OpenSource. The point is - in the context of this discussion, it is not the 'techies' opinions that matter - it is the 'non-techies' opinions that matter. What I am saying is, the reality exists - whether any of us 'techies' like it or not - and the Linux community must step up and meet the challenge (and it is - it just needs to keep its focus on important things like 'user-friendly') with honesty, integrity, confidence, competence, and dignity - and a very positive attitude...

    FACT: Linux has come a long way in a short time - and is ever increasingly growing and expanding at an accelerated rate.

    Still, we "techies" need to [sometimes] be a little more receptive...

    Sure, I think the person who wrote the article probably just wanted to trash Linux.

    So what do you do??? ---- You take the right attitude along with honesty, integrity, confidence, competence, and dignity -- and you develop and hand them something that just unmistakably and undeniably beats the crap out of anything else out there - and that will shut them up (and probably convert them to Linux/OpenSource). :P :P

  2. #12
    Linux Newbie
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    Jul 2005
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    Got quite a kick out of it

    That guy must be a freakin genious.. man he can work XP no problem

  3. #13
    Linux Enthusiast carlosponti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    you cant expect some Joe Smoe to use linux. like someone earlier remarked if it doesnt come pre installed on the Dell computer it aint gettin installed. average user cant install windows either. my brother in law who has never installed windows before accidentally installed windows on a 4 gb partition because he didnt understand the drive sizes. i am not saying he is stupid cause he is not however if you are not involved in computers as much as everyone here you wouldnt know. well needless to say after everything was said and done he had to reinstall again and i told him to use all his drive and i even made sure he had some updates to secure his PC. now if he is considered joe smoe user and had trouble with windows xp how do you expect him to install suse and know what a swap partition is and beable to use and install software. the article is correct in that suse is not going to be easy for any joe smoe. not unless they have an average joe linux user around to help out.
    Registered Linux user 396557

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  5. #14
    Just Joined!
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    Feb 2005
    Mumbai, India
    well I wud have to agree to the fact that u need a lil help before u can install linux on ur system. by help I mean that you should atleast talk to someone who has done it before. and most importantly u need the motivation.

    the first time linux user doesnt really know what swap and / really are. windows does things for u automatically.......but u need to know certain things while installing linux......

    I believe that linux is important for the profound learning experience it provides....while windows just assumes things and expects that those things are the best for the average user

  6. #15
    Linux User cayalee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    well he got a good size flame from me. just cos hes too stupid to read the manual or ask for help doent give him the right to slander a good product off all over the net to what is probably a large readership.
    You know, aliens are going to come to earth in 50 years and kill the hell out of us for DDoSing their networks with this SETI crap
    registered linux user #388463

  7. #16
    After it boots up it looks very pretty. Apparently you are able to chose between KDE and Gnome desktops on this version of Suse. Once again telepathy is required to work out how to do this. I ended up with KDE, but I don't know how.
    One word is only required in response to that paragraph:


  8. #17
    Linux Newbie
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    Mar 2005
    From my personal experience I've come to think that there's just no point in trying to understand/argue with/reason with such people...
    You can only be young once. But you can always be immature.

  9. #18
    Linux User martinfromdublin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Dublin, Rep. of Ireland
    Does that 'reviewer' work for Bill Gates?
    LINUX: Where do you want to go.......Tomorrow!

    Registered Linux user 396633

  10. #19
    Just Joined!
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    Jul 2005
    Ottawa, Canada
    Can we have a representative from linuxforums write up a massive review of his review?

    ...and make it longer than his aswell...pointing out every aspect of his idiocy

    on the note of XP coming installed from earlier in teh topic, I have a local PC shop (sells nationally to Canada as well), that offers not just windows installed. They'll build you a comp and stick Linspire on it for like...50 CAD bucks for the retail package....installed for you.

    I think thats just great...cause Linspire is great for first-time linux users.

  11. #20
    Just Joined! vitalka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Toronto, ON
    I wrote to the guy, symphonizing that he had a frustrating weekend with Suse, and i recommended that he should have spend at least a month on it before posting that article, and here is what i got in reply(this morning):

    What are you talking about... I have been using Red Hat and Suse since 2002. Currently I am not using it because Suse can't find and run a drive for my DSL so I am back on VoleWare.
    The latest version of Suse is a bastard to install compaired to Windows XP. It is for techies not the sorts of people that are getting buy on Windows now. I really do not understand why people have a problem with that. Maybe it is just that the Linux crowd is so techie and insular that they think that because they have 'got it' the rest of the world must have done. I have this problem with developers at work too who I don't dare let close to a client..
    In actual fact that article, which I wrote ages ago, got me a sackful of mail from people who wanted Linux to work for them so they could dump windows, but it was 'too hard' for them.
    Note that he has beeing using RedHat since 2002, and yet he didn't know on how to switch between KDE and Gnome.

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