fights

[Dapper Dan]

And what makes Chavez, Tubman and Steinem any less important when you consider that our lives may have been fundamentally different if it were not for their existance?

If you don't already know why their contributions are not as important as those made by the likes of Washington, Jefferson and Hamilton, in the context of the history of the United States, then it cannot now, nor will it ever be understood by you.

[Vergil83]

I must protest I don't know what schools you have seen recently, but in my 13 years of public school education I never once heard a teacher speak about Cesar Chavez. And I doubt I ever heard anything more about Harriet Tubman than her being one of many abolitionists.

The lives of Harriet Tubman and Cesar Chavez are presented in many of our public schools...

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Rea...le.asp?ID=4132

I have no problem with this in itself. I do however feel it does a great disservice to our young people when important figures such as Washington, Jefferson, and Hamilton are given short shrift in favour of Chavez, Tubman and Steinem.

Since this thread is about fights and not the teaching of history, I don't want to get to far off the point, but I think that page is a lot of nit picking. Making a big deal because a North Vietnamese solder is called a Vietnamese soldier, or that a story about Hiroshima doesn't mention the number of killed at Pear Harbor, or that a story about how the Wampanoag viewed the Pilgrims doesn't talk about thanksgiving, I think is completely absurd.

What this article is more about, are people being mad that schools are not propaganda tools to teach children that the US is perfect and has never ever done anything wrong. I see nothing wrong in providing information that dismisses the normal fairytale view of thanksgiving (everyone holding hands in a circle and signing) with a more accurate view of conflict between various people, both in America and Europe over land and religion.

However, I think there is a common ground. My 10th grade US history teacher did this, and I thought, and still do think it is a great idea. He had us read one chapter (about the some time range) in three different history books. The first history book was a typical early 20th century histories that is clearly slanted (ie Christopher Columbus was a great guy that never did anything bad). The next history book was A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn, which is about the polar opposite. The last was our "real" history book, that was your normal history book, that tries to be impartial. What you learned was that those people writing the history can really affect how it is viewed by the reader. It teaches you that you should question if those history is really accurate or doesn't is it biased? There is always time for lessons on critical thinking IMHO.

[JoeB]

Darl wrote:

I'm a known linux user, I've broken several, perhaps ten or more, fights. I've been mouthed off, threatened, all sorts of posturing. Never been in a fight. Never. Avoiding a fight is effortless, from my experience. I've never had to back down, but I've never chased someone who was backing down.

Ah HA! A known Linux user. Trouble of the worst sort. (j/k) Sounds like you are doing a fine job keeping the peace. I apologize for continuing the fork in ths thread. however:

Vergil83

What you learned was that those people writing the history can really affect how it is viewed by the reader. It teaches you that you should question if those history is really accurate or doesn't is it biased?

If I remember correctly, this type of comparative study is referred to as historiography. It is in fact a very interesting way of examining what actually happened in history as opposed to how it is remembered.

I am again impressed with Dapper Dan's assessment of history, speciifically in this case regarding Winston Churchill. That speech is probably my all time favorite, (closely followed by those of the man nominated by the Republicans for the presidency in Chicago in 1860)

Yes, Churchill was probably one of the greatest American citzens that ever lived. (He received honary US citizenship from President Kennedy in 1963)

[Dapper Dan]

Since this thread is about fights and not the teaching of history, I don't want to get to far off the point, but I think that page is a lot of nit picking. Making a big deal because a North Vietnamese solder is called a Vietnamese soldier, or that a story about Hiroshima doesn't mention the number of killed at Pear Harbor, or that a story about how the Wampanoag viewed the Pilgrims doesn't talk about thanksgiving, I think is completely absurd.

My only purpose was to demonstrate that the lives of Harriet Tubman and Cesar Chaves are presented in some of our public schools as more historically significant than others who were far more important to U.S. history. As for the rest of it, we are pretty much in agreement.

[Dapper Dan]

I am again impressed with Dapper Dan's assessment of history, speciifically in this case regarding Winston Churchill. That speech is probably my all time favorite, (closely followed by those of the man nominated by the Republicans for the presidency in Chicago in 1860)

Hi JoeB,
I appreciate the compliment, though I'm afraid we must part ways when it comes to the Republican's choice for president in 1860.

[chopin1810]

Since this thread is about fights and not the teaching of history, I don't want to get to far off the point, but I think that page is a lot of nit picking. Making a big deal because a North Vietnamese solder is called a Vietnamese soldier, or that a story about Hiroshima doesn't mention the number of killed at Pear Harbor, or that a story about how the Wampanoag viewed the Pilgrims doesn't talk about thanksgiving, I think is completely absurd.

My only purpose was to demonstrate that the lives of Harriet Tubman and Cesar Chaves are presented in some of our public schools as more historically significant than others who were far more important to U.S. history.

My point is that many of the things we all take for granted today may not have ever been given to us if it weren't for the above people. The schools should present all of them in an equal light. The problem I have with the grade schools I went to is that so many of them told the previously mentioned "fairy-tales" that never occured. So many of the American Revolutionary leaders are very overglorified these days. Why? Because of silly patriotic biases. Any founding father's dream would have been a big country club with black slaves serving the white patritians. It's true. There's nothing wrong with saying that. It's just what the culture was like. I'm sure there were some poorer properties with the people mentioned in the above quote. We must present these people as they truely were without bias. That's what teaching is. The founding fathers were men. Not gods. As well with Abraham Lincoln. Realise that Lincoln was not a freedom activist. Freeing the slaves was a simple political move. But the schools would like our children to believe the opposite.

[fingal]

Health warning: this is just my point of view, so feel free to ignore what you don't like. You will anyway.

This thread seems to have legs! It's not really about fights anymore, but history .... I'm ashamed to say that I don't know much about American history, but I agree with many of Chopins' points above ... I have a strong bias towards anything which involves social activism though, and I find people who support social underdogs fascinating. That colours my view in many ways.

I think Vergil made some important points about looking at history critically. The history books may well be loaded in favour of one group or another. In this country - at least when I was at school - history was about 'what happened' but always in the context of Kings, Queens battles etc. How stupid!! What about you and me? I personally don't care a truck full of washers for Kings, Queens, Presidents, Prime Ministers or the rest of them. To quote an anonymous Southern American gentleman, "There never was a politician who was deterred by reality."

I think "ordinary" people throughout history who try to change the way things are are also very important. In this country there are many of them, but are they mentioned in the curiculum? Wat Tyler, John Ball, Tom Paine. What about John Muir who helped to found America's national parks? The Tolpuddle Martyrs ... The list is very large indeed ... but not when you're at school because really all that happens there is, 'getting ready for the world of work' ... That isn't education, it's brain-washing.

Okay - that's all I really had to say.

[Dapper Dan]

I think it's time we move this over to a new thread since we all have gotten way off topic...