A place to discuss Linux?

[Meep3D]

It seems quite strange that there appears to be no place on the Internet that you can discuss Linux. I don't mean 'isn't distro xyz super' sort of discussions but more of a critical 'why doesn't it do this' and 'this should be easier' sort of discussions.

I appreciate complaining does no good, but constructive criticism is often benificial, yet there is nowhere I have found that isn't downright hostile to any discussion that doesn't consist entirely of praise.

I know bugzilla* & friends exists, but it only deals with coding errors and specific problems rather than issues such as interface layout, usability, accessibility etc. and doesn't give a chance of dialogue (ideas need to be challenged and refuted).

Its just I have yet to find a single place that is tolerant of critical discussion and it seems to me to be on the verge of self censorship, and if the end users are not permitted to discuss software critically then important issues will simply not be brought to light.

Microsoft Bob could be made entirely bug free by an army of programmers but it still wouldn't make it good software.

Of course if you think I am wrong point me to a place where critical discussions of Linux are ongoing and I will go there and join in, but at the moment I don't see anywhere I can actually give feedback that isn't in the form of praise without getting my posts deleted as 'irrelevant', 'offtopic' and 'Its free stop complaining'.

If on the other hand you can't find such a place, isn't this a serious problem that your only allowed to say nice things about it? (as it certainly doesn't help the cause)

* I filed loads of bugs months ago, they are all still 'Unconfirmed'**

** I do have loads of karma now though

[fingal]

Hmmm - I don't see things quite your way. I would have done at one time but once you start down the 'constructive criticism' * road (bright eyed, bushy tailed and full of zeal) you'll end up involved in a religious flame-war faster than you can say 'kernel'. The net isn't an ideal medium for discussion really. In fact IMHO it's an appalling medium for discussion. When you wade into a community of some sort asking for one you're breaching an unwritten 'Netiquette' but without exposing yourself to actual involvement.

I think the problem with what you are saying is this. You're an 'end user' who wants to 'discuss' your 'problems' with certain aspects of a given GNU/Linux distro. Don't do it! Instead, get involved in open source more actively. Feel free to criticise me for telling you this if you like but remember this next phrase and burn it into your brain:

The world of GNU/Linux is not a discussion, it's an activity.

Because most of it is a little new to the world and it operates outside of everyday corporate structures (or seems to) it can appear that we are all insular, arrogant and intolerant of debate. No! It's just that we can see a flame war coming a mile off, and we don't want to waste time watching another one develop.

I only have three more things to say to you. Get involved, get involved .... get involved. If you want a debate enrol on a philosophy course. PS: if you want to be critical, do like I do and turn it into a joke. And anyway ... Everyone knows our favourite OS is perfect in every way and bug free! Well okay ... no it's not but it's fun to use and when you're having fun why bother with a debate?

* Isn't that an oxymoron? A bit like 'peaceful war' or 'safely dangerous'?

[Meep3D]

Its funny. I keep getting told its 'ready for the desktop' but as soon as I try to start a discussion on why its blatantly not, 'your not allowed to talk about that here'.

I just see utterly horrible and inexcusable problems on a daily basis that everyone is just willing to gloss over and your simply not allowed to talk about it.

http://daringfireball.net/2004/04/spray_on_usability
http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cups-horror.html

The only way I see the situation actually improve is if people talk about it, and look more closely and critically at the software they are using. I hate the whole 'its perfect' attitude. If your trying to sell (metaphorically) the OS to people who dont really care about the GPL and OSS on an emotional level then it actually needs to be better than its competitors rather than being better by virtue of being 'open'.

[fingal]

Its funny. I keep getting told its 'ready for the desktop' but as soon as I try to start a discussion on why its blatantly not, 'your not allowed to talk about that here'.

I just see utterly horrible and inexcusable problems on a daily basis that everyone is just willing to gloss over and your simply not allowed to talk about it.

No-one in this forum with any sense at all is bothered about your comments. You're just trolling. Been there, bought the t-shirt. Please lock this thread.

[Meep3D]

No-one in this forum with any sense at all is bothered about your comments. You're just trolling. Been there, bought the t-shirt. Please lock this thread.

Because anyone who doesn't think Linux is amazing and has problems with it is obviously a troll, irrespective of the persons points. Quick, lock the thread, its not 'I love Linux' poetry!

One of the most important parts of software development is user feedback, yet any feedback that isn't praise isn't allowed. Its ironic that under an open source model the users are expected to 'put up or shut up' much more than under a closed source one. I dont know about you but I would actually appreciate someone pointing out problems (valid or not) with my software more than someone who just blindly chucks praise at it.

I think its sad how such a great idea is kept down by, essentially, yes men. Praise is allowed. Criticism is not allowed.

[Jiraiya-sama]

i'm pretty sure people do talk about these things.in fact, you can join a couple of mailing lists and ask to get something working, and they would probably do it.

then again, the point of your posts seem to be less about getting linux to be more usable, and more about comparing linux directly to windows. if you wanna do that, how about i complain that i can't get any sort of info as to what goes on behind the scenes in my xp install so that i can fix it. or, how about how easy it is to get a virus on windows, and how hard it can be to remove once it is there?

theres a place for trolls like you to bash linux, and its called The Desktop Linux forum windows vs linux debate

[Meep3D]

i'm pretty sure people do talk about these things.in fact, you can join a couple of mailing lists and ask to get something working, and they would probably do it.

Its not that they aren't working, its more that they are badly designed. Read the links I posted, UI design is an art that most programmers don't possess

then again, the point of your posts seem to be less about getting linux to be more usable, and more about comparing linux directly to windows. if you wanna do that, how about i complain that i can't get any sort of info as to what goes on behind the scenes in my xp install so that i can fix it. or, how about how easy it is to get a virus on windows, and how hard it can be to remove once it is there?

Firstly, Your the first person to use the word 'Windows' in this thread. All I have said is that any criticism of Linux (note the word 'Windows' is missing) gets immediatley put down as trolling, no matter how valid.

Secondly Windows gets bashed and ridiculed constantly, largely by Linux advocates on a regular basis for just about any reason. The reason people are so aware of Windows flaws is that they talk about them - Microsoft has actually been doing a fairly good job recently of sorting some of them out - without the public feedback it wouldn't even know about them.

theres a place for trolls like you to bash linux, and its called The Desktop Linux forum windows vs linux debate

Your so obsessed with defending against the Windows vs Linux argument you can't see the wood for the trees and fail to see any flaws in Linux at all.

Here's a challenge. Tell me something about Linux that annoys you, a problem or misfeature that irritates you. If you feel up to the added bonus fun challenge start a new thread with it in it and watch yourself get called a Windows fanboy troll.

[techieMoe]

Here's a challenge. Tell me something about Linux that annoys you, a problem or misfeature that irritates you. If you feel up to the added bonus fun challenge start a new thread with it in it and watch yourself get called a Windows fanboy troll.

Here's a challenge. Find a forum that puts up with trolling. Goodbye.