Microsoft courts Red Hat

[Redman]

Microsoft is to form a partnership with Red Hat to improve the interoperability of Windows and Linux, according to Tom Robertson, Microsoft's general manager of interoperability and standards.

Read more here.

Sounds to me like a clear case of "if you can't beat them, join them" ...
Since Microsoft is teaming up with several Linux companies

[easuter]

Hmmm..... dejá vú

Just hope this doesn't turn into the same thing that happened with Novell...
But I can't see RedHat making a deal the same as Novell's especially since they criticized it so much!

Maybe it really will be for interoperability, and not another patent/FUD'ing campaing.

[techieMoe]

I think this is just a case of a Microsoft suit talking out of his ass. Redhat's CEO Matthew Szulik has been quoted many times lambasting the Novell deal. He risks a lot of bad press by suddenly reversing his stance like that.

Just because something could happen doesn't mean it will. More than likely the reporter misquoted this guy as saying they'd like to have a partnership with Redhat, which is old news.

[stubbe]

positive decision can only bring positive situation for both side. Linux get the goodies, MS get the goodies aswell. The users certainly can only get good thing out from this agreement. So nobody lose anything here.

[techieMoe]

positive decision can only bring positive situation for both side. Linux get the goodies, MS get the goodies aswell. The users certainly can only get good thing out from this agreement. So nobody lose anything here.

Wow, our views couldn't be more opposed. As far as I'm concerned, this kind of deal means everyone involved with Linux loses, greatly. To make a deal like Novell has with MS implicitly validates the claim that Linux has infringing patents that MS owns, which I'm not ready to believe.

Why does this matter? It sets a precedent of protectionism that means if you want to be "safe" you have to pay the Microsoft mafia or that Linux distro you have might have a little patent "accident".

[carlosponti]

Moe that is how i see these Patent Dealings! Its insulting enough to get the privilege of paying the Microsoft tax when you buy a PC but soon they will have a tax when you build one too. In the 40's and 50's with the Various Mafias such protection schemes were called Extortion!

[Roxoff]

Wow, our views couldn't be more opposed. As far as I'm concerned, this kind of deal means everyone involved with Linux loses, greatly. To make a deal like Novell has with MS implicitly validates the claim that Linux has infringing patents that MS owns, which I'm not ready to believe.

My understanding here is that, for once - and for the first time ever, the boot is squarely on the other foot. For years Microsoft has used an 'embrace and extend' policy to public standards. They backed away from that a few years ago, and in a change of strategy pulled C# and .NET out of their proverbial backsides. C# was presented as a standard, and the .NET framework they protected by patents.

Then along comes MONO, which takes extreme steps to make damn sure they breach none of those patents, but they implement .NET on the open platform - politically it looks like Microsoft have been played with their own tactics.

Now there's little Microsoft can do about all this, other than stake challenges over the patents, and they're far from certain to win, because those that developed MONO have taken steps to protect themselves, so MS can either fight a battle that will be costly with no certainty of victory, or get involved where they can influence such projects for the benefit of their own open standards (C# and whatever else they were planning).

It makes sense for RedHat to get involved in a deal, because it does protect them from having to fight any uncertain battles too - but they're in a stronger position than Novell who made the first deal of this type. RedHat know what Microsoft are trying protect, they've seen it with the Novell deal, so they can go into such arrangements with their eyes open.

Personally, I believe that anything that allows more open interoperation between Windows and Linux must be a good thing. I reallly cant see RedHat wanting to pay a heavy price for such changes, and that'll give them strength in any negotiations.

[techieMoe]

Personally, I believe that anything that allows more open interoperation between Windows and Linux must be a good thing.

If that were all that a deal like this entailed, I would agree. However, I don't see that happening here. Deals like this are protection money, nothing more. Do you honestly believe Steve Ballmer is going to order the troops to make Microsoft's products work better with Linux?

No. Microsoft is going to use their negotiating clout (read: money) to influence the development of Linux to facilitate MS Windows, not the other way around. I don't see any positive coming from this. That being said, I really hope I'm wrong.

[Roxoff]

No. Microsoft is going to use their negotiating clout (read: money) to influence the development of Linux to facilitate MS Windows, not the other way around. I don't see any positive coming from this. That being said, I really hope I'm wrong.

But Linux has been trying to facilitate Windows for years - samba, ntfs support, etc. This approach has got to be easier if Microsoft are voluntarily providing information about how these systems work rather than the community having to reverse engineer this stuff.

Microsoft probably realise that they can influence Linux development, but it's unlikely that they'd be able to direct it with much effect - even if they twisted RedHat, Novell, and even Sun's arm to work in a certain way, there are way too many people involved with Linux development outside of those companies for it to have a dramatic effect. MS cannot change the way Linux development has been done so far - those methods will continue to be used - but extra information or methods available through these companies could easily help other developments along.

Everyone seems to mention that these deals amount to an admission that Microsoft Patents may be valid - but I think the bigger result is that Microsoft have all but admitted that they cannot fight against Linux, they can only acknowledge the OS exists and interoperate with it. It's a bigger MS capitulation than anything Novell or RedHat could be seen to have given.

[techieMoe]

But Linux has been trying to facilitate Windows for years - samba, ntfs support, etc. This approach has got to be easier if Microsoft are voluntarily providing information about how these systems work rather than the community having to reverse engineer this stuff.

Admittedly, I haven't read the details of the Novell/MS pact, but does it in any way discuss Microsoft releasing anything at all to help SAMBA or NTFS work better in Linux? Microsoft hasn't made any broad announcements about open-sourcing NTFS or anything else for that matter, so any interoperability work will have to happen either with binary components (goodbye Debian) or non-disclosure contracts (again, goodbye Debian). I'm still waiting to see if anything tangible comes out of the Novell/MS deal. I'm not holding my breath.

Everyone seems to mention that these deals amount to an admission that Microsoft Patents may be valid - but I think the bigger result is that Microsoft have all but admitted that they cannot fight against Linux, they can only acknowledge the OS exists and interoperate with it. It's a bigger MS capitulation than anything Novell or RedHat could be seen to have given.

Capitulation is capitulation, big or small in your mind. Novell and possibly soon Redhat have all but stood up on a national stage and kissed the Steve Ballmer Microsoft Patent ring on his finger. Do you honestly think that's not an important event, whether you consider it negative or positive?

Make no mistake: Microsoft has not yielded anything. They made sure of this, as they do in all their contracts, and they'll make liberal use of every loophole they can to undermine Linux now that they have their heels dug in. I'm not a lawyer, but I trust Microsoft's legal department about as much as a drug-addicted, tattooed Las Vegas hooker.

::EDIT:: Ok, so this is quickly turning into another one of my rants. I'm going to back out of the thread before I do something against the rules. My views on this are pretty clear I think. I'm out.