[tech291083]

Hi,

I have been hearing a lot from an IT student friend of mine about the increasing hatred towards programming of any kind taught at the university and efforts to look for something else in the IT field itself as a career option. Can any one who is experienced enough tell me as why this is a shocking reality? Why universities are failing to encourage students to become professional programmers? If an IT student is not interested in being a programmer what else are the options? What is the most preferred option of all in terms of what you have seen in your professional career? Thanks.

[benjamin20]

if you are not a programmer than you really could only be a system admin. im not sure why you would rather be a sys admin over programmer. it seems like a lot more crap to deal with if you are just an admin.

it could have something to do with a general change in programming. it seemed that all through the 90's and early 2000's there was a big emphasis on web programming and java programming, easy stuff. now it doesn't look like the same demand for that and more demand for regular programming skills(to fix up all the crappy software).

it might also be outsourcing of jobs has lead to more programmers than people to hire them. although i thought companies were starting to feel the problems from having under educated programming and more difficult to manage programming environments.

i don't really know but thats just two scenarios that i tink might be happening.

[zba78]

When I did my degree in programming (in the 90s) there was a fair emphasis on programming. I believe as the industry has grown so to has the need for a greater variety of skills.

An example of this can be seen in the video gaming industry where many people are employed for non-technical roles such as HCI or market research or even just artwork (menu designs, characters etc.). All of which is integral to the development of what is essentially a piece of software (a video game) but don't require programming skills.

It's just the natural progression of things i guess

[sdousley]

Originally Posted by tech291083

Can any one who is experienced enough tell me as why this is a shocking reality? Why universities are failing to encourage students to become professional programmers? If an IT student is not interested in being a programmer what else are the options? What is the most preferred option of all in terms of what you have seen in your professional career? Thanks.

Personally it was university that disuaded me from becoming a programmer. I did Computer and Network Engineering, and the ONE thing i did in ALL 6 semesters at uni was Java. Now i know people may well argue that java is a networking language, which i agree, it is, in which case, why out of the 6 semesters (and 6 projects) we had to do was only ONE project required the use of the network, of which we were given 90% the code anyway!!

At uni, i was told what programs to write stuff in (predominantly Java) which i have grown to detest with a passion because of the rubbish i was asked to do for coursework etc. Had i had a choice in what language i could use to do a similar task, i would maybe have enjoyed it a bit more. Like for example, we made a java program to access an access database, i'd rather use a php/mysql one as that's more logical. Why would u want a java frontend to an access database? Why not just use the access forms etc?!?! Just my opinion on this

[techieMoe]

Originally Posted by sdousley

Personally it was university that disuaded me from becoming a programmer. I did Computer and Network Engineering, and the ONE thing i did in ALL 6 semesters at uni was Java.

At uni, i was told what programs to write stuff in (predominantly Java) which i have grown to detest with a passion because of the rubbish i was asked to do for coursework etc. Had i had a choice in what language i could use to do a similar task, i would maybe have enjoyed it a bit more.

I don't want to sound too harsh here, but tough, get over it. It's impossible for any school to offer fully-realized curriculum in the full myriad of languages that exist out there today. Java is an object-oriented language that borrows from many languages before it (Pascal, C, C++). It's a good common denominator.

I was in the opposite boat at my university. They were an all C/C++ shop with a grand total of 2 classes in Java, neither of which were offered to Computer Science majors. They were offered to business students. I write Java code for a living now, and had I been able to have some more exposure to it in my university it might have given me a smoother transition.

My point is it's impossible for a single educational entity to offer all the classes its students might want. You simply have to pick the university and classes that appeal to you most, and deal with the limitations that come up. Don't like Java? Nothing is stopping you from learning C, C++, Perl, PHP, or Ruby on your own. I had plenty of side programming projects while I was in college. Don't rely completely on your institution for your learning.

[Vergil83]

Originally Posted by benjamin20

it might also be outsourcing of jobs has lead to more programmers than people to hire them. although i thought companies were starting to feel the problems from having under educated programming and more difficult to manage programming environments.

That sounds like the issue to me. Programming can be outsource. System admin. is much harder to be located 5000 miles away.

[anomie]

Can any one who is experienced enough tell me as why this is a shocking reality?

That's not the reality at all in my experience. I studied CS in college and programming (C++ / Java) was a heavy part of our curriculum, along with application development and systems analysis.

What is the most preferred option of all in terms of what you have seen in your professional career?

Be agile and flexible. It never hurts to know a whole lot more than what your position description specifies.

I've worked in positions as both 100% programmer and 100% sysadmin. Now my career is a combination of both. I suspect that is true for a lot of folks.

[zildjian1979]

Originally Posted by benjamin20

if you are not a programmer than you really could only be a system admin. im not sure why you would rather be a sys admin over programmer. it seems like a lot more crap to deal with if you are just an admin.

it could have something to do with a general change in programming. it seemed that all through the 90's and early 2000's there was a big emphasis on web programming and java programming, easy stuff. now it doesn't look like the same demand for that and more demand for regular programming skills(to fix up all the crappy software).

it might also be outsourcing of jobs has lead to more programmers than people to hire them. although i thought companies were starting to feel the problems from having under educated programming and more difficult to manage programming environments.

i don't really know but thats just two scenarios that i tink might be happening.

That's not true...there is much more in the IT field than just programming and being a sys admin. You can go into forensics, security, networking, and a mixture of all of them. I think universities may be discouraging students from going into programming because they hear back from businesses who hire their students and have started realizing that there are too many under-educated, under-qualified programmers out there...and besides, most programmers who are worth their weight have been programming way before college, so they don't need anyone else to tell them what their career path will be. There is HIGH demand for quality programmers...but keep your options open

I do think you're right about the change in programming though...there is SO much crappy software out there to fix...mostly in the commercial software side

[likwid]

Well a lot of people just don't have what it takes to be a programmer. The frame of mind is mathematical, logical, AND artistic. Like someone else said anyone worthy has started at a young age way before college. You're just not gonna jump into using computers at 19 or 20 or whatever and pick up on technical concepts near as easily as a young kid would.

When I was in honors CS half the kids in there didn't know anything about computers. Actually, they didn't know anything about anything technical. I had been using linux since 13 years old, worked on computers in a technical sense since that age, and had a few years of experience doing low-level binary and hex computation (I was an electronics student in high school). Starting at such a young age made college pretty much a breeze. (The time I actually stayed)

And then after you sort out the people who just aren't very able, you have people like me. I enjoy technical things, even advanced technical concepts, and light programming. But do I want to be a full-time programmer? Hell no. I think colleges need to offer more real-world courses for systems administration and network engineering, because the CS mantra seems to be CODE CODE CODE. Well what about the hundreds of other sub-fields in computing that don't involve heavy or full time programming? This is why I dropped out to pursue my career.

BUT I have to say that any computer professional needs to be able to do light coding. You should be able to read and understand most code you see, because that's just part of being what you want to be.

[benjamin20]

it seems to me that different languages are better suited for different tasks. and thats what courses should be doing is trying to train people for a specific(but general) area in computer science. if you were to be a computer scientist you need all these levels. but there is no reason to be a full fledged computer scientist in order to be a web programmer. you need web programming classes. it should include xhtml, php(and pearl and python), sql, javascript, css, and just about everything else to do with web programming. game programmers need c++, and all appropriate api's. java should be a general language used to teach new students and should be tought in entirety to all students just because its simple and can open them up to other desighn concepts.

but most importantly, computer science should be putting out people that know about all aspects of computers, just like other science areas.