80% Giving Up

[dfxdeimos]

Well for the 4th or 5th time this week I have decided to fix a driver problem by doing an OS re-install

But I tired to really examine myself this time, and I realized that I am not ready to move away from the world of Windows yet. Even though I would consider myself savvy in general, I found my lack of specific Linux experience debilitating in my attempt to use it as a Windows replacement.

Just to the contrary, this foray into the Linux world has shown me that although Linux development may be geared for maximum flexibility, speed and stability; the lack of a central sort of 'authority' to set a course has seriously harmed the development of Linux as a widespread serious desktop competitor to Windows.

Foremost amongst those problems is the inability of Linux to achieve any sort of easy and standard, although some may argue, driver architecture.

I am currently working as a computer systems builder while I am in school, building maybe 25-35 systems a week, all of these computers use Windows. I just assemble the components properly, put in the cd, and it just works. If it does not, I know I have a hardware issue. If I had to make a living assembling and installing OSes on Linux machines, I would be broke quick.

I oh so badly wanted Linux to be all that I thought it could be.

So for now I am going to spit my HDD 80% / 20% for Windows / Fedora 7 and just try to ease myself into it. After all nothing is so hard if you are already an expert... right?

[bigtomrodney]

After all nothing is so hard if you are already an expert... right?

It's funny, I used to work in Network Administration and Desktop NT support. Some of the older guys used to snicker that I talked about Linux/Unix/BSD and often made fun of the fact. It was only when I pulled them out of a few holes with Linux that I turned around and said to them "You are not computer experts - you are Windows experts". It wasn't meant to be hurtful or a putdown, nor to make me feel superior but instead to point out that the sum of knowledge out there to be had is not the same as the sum of knowledge you have.

The first thing to do is forget thinking of yourself as an expert in this context. It is much harder to understand and learn if you think you should already know something. An open mind is a powerful thing.

There are a lot of people that are experts in this field and many will be only too happy to help you along the way. The first and most important step is to realise that Linux and Windows are not the same thing. I have years of experience with all sorts of hardware and software at enterprise level. I have built desktops, managed domains, administered farms of servers but now above all else I find myself more comfortable with Linux. It is actually with Linux that I find things just work.

And with that out there I wish you good luck. The dual booting is a good idea. Throwing yourself 100% at something without any kind of experience or background can be very frustrating. There are a number of points on driver architecture and authority that I would dispute with you but for now, it's just a 'good luck'

[dfxdeimos]

A couple mis-understandings...

The "Nothing is so hard when you are already an expert" was just me saying that I would dual boot until I became an expert, then I am sure everything will seem easy in retrospect.

And although I don't really know anything about driver architecture per say, I was simply commenting on the average end user driver use experience. I go to the website, click on drivers, select my OS, download, double click, it just works. No ./configure, no make, no make install, no dropping out of x to configure a certain driver. It was simply the ease of use that I was commenting on.

I assure you I am trying to keep a very open mind, however that might be difficult with my MCSE coming up...

[cousinlucky]

Ah the world of Linux discovery. I am not an expert on anything to do with computers or any os. Windows did everything for me; or gave me options to choose.

My suse 10 Linux os does nothing. It expects me as the user to do everything.

This morning, after an update, I found an options button and clicked it. There were more buttons one of which was packages, I clicked that. I found out that a whole slew of things for my gnome desktop were not running. As a matter of fact a whole slew of things that could have been running on my computer were not running because I did not have any idea of their existence.

Windows, along with costing me a fortune in hard drive reformats, kept me on a leash of ignorance. Linux is making me learn.

[bidi]

The first thing to do is forget thinking of yourself as an expert in this context. It is much harder to understand and learn if you think you should already know something. An open mind is a powerful thing.

I highly agree with this! As an example, today I spent 1:30 hours trying to figure out why my brand new Slackware 12.0 install was not connecting to my NFS server if the previous v11.0 had been working just fine and my Debian laptop also connected to it just fine. Turns out it was one of the init scripts that needed to be executable. I still don't remember turning it on on 11.0, but apparently this is the case for the new version.

I think the biggest problems with drivers in Linux is the fact that vendors do not support it. Using hardware with official Linux drivers make life so much easier! Not to mention, if you really have supported hardware it's usually all setup during the OS install with no extra tinkering.

[mahlerfan]

Well for the 4th or 5th time this week I have decided to fix a driver problem by doing an OS re-install

Lesson 1 you need to learn to be more savvy linux user-- you can fix most driver problems without reinstalling the OS. In some cases the driver is at the X level, which can be fixed by installing that specific driver (xf86-blah-blah form of name). In most cases the driver is at the kernel level which can be fixed by the most dreadfully scary thing that a linux user can do-- recompile his kernel. It's very intimidating, but do it a few times and you won't be bothered by it anymore.

But I tired to really examine myself this time, and I realized that I am not ready to move away from the world of Windows yet. Even though I would consider myself savvy in general, I found my lack of specific Linux experience debilitating in my attempt to use it as a Windows replacement.

I might never move away from Windows. I use linux because there is stuff on there that I can't do on windows, and it's fun. If you don't have similar motivation to use linux, don't lose sleep over it. We should use the right tool for the job.

Just to the contrary, this foray into the Linux world has shown me that although Linux development may be geared for maximum flexibility, speed and stability; the lack of a central sort of 'authority' to set a course has seriously harmed the development of Linux as a widespread serious desktop competitor to Windows.

Excuse me but a kernel to handle all hardware support is more centralized awesomeness than MS depending on companies to write their own drivers for Windows!! And Torvald and Stallman are as much central figures in Linux as Ballmer and Gates are in windows.

Foremost amongst those problems is the inability of Linux to achieve any sort of easy and standard, although some may argue, driver architecture.

The kernel is what unites all linux distros together, so I don't follow you. And how does that compare to the kernels in other OSs? You need to write more to substantiate this point that you're making.

I am currently working as a computer systems builder while I am in school, building maybe 25-35 systems a week, all of these computers use Windows. I just assemble the components properly, put in the cd, and it just works. If it does not, I know I have a hardware issue. If I had to make a living assembling and installing OSes on Linux machines, I would be broke quick.

What's your point? That people would not buy your pcs with linux preloaded? Or is it about hardware? Because if it's about hardware you have to do what Dell did-- choose hardware that is supported on linux, which also what is done for preinstalled windows as well. Dell didn't have a problem, so why should you?

I oh so badly wanted Linux to be all that I thought it could be.

So for now I am going to spit my HDD 80% / 20% for Windows / Fedora 7 and just try to ease myself into it. After all nothing is so hard if you are already an expert... right?

I'm glad that you're keeping with it, because honestly you need to use Linux for a few months to get how to do things, that is of course assuming that during that time you are actively challenging yourself.

[Agent-X]

Linux sucks, but it truly is better than using Windows.
Just use a live-cd.

[dfxdeimos]

Lesson 1 you need to learn to be more savvy linux user-- you can fix most driver problems without reinstalling the OS. In some cases the driver is at the X level, which can be fixed by installing that specific driver (xf86-blah-blah form of name). In most cases the driver is at the kernel level which can be fixed by the most dreadfully scary thing that a linux user can do-- recompile his kernel. It's very intimidating, but do it a few times and you won't be bothered by it anymore.

It wasn't all driver related, part if it came from being told that a different distro might be better for me, but each distro that I tried had some sort of different problem... power management in Fedora, package updating in Slackware, video driver problems in Ubuntu.

I realize that I could probably have done a lot more to try to repair the problems, but some of this stuff is very intimidating for someone with zero Linux experience.

Excuse me but a kernel to handle all hardware support is more centralized awesomeness than MS depending on companies to write their own drivers for Windows!! And Torvald and Stallman are as much central figures in Linux as Ballmer and Gates are in windows.

Who and who? Just kidding, they may be central figures; however they do not command the ability to set Linux wide standards and use the collective market share of Linux as leverage when dealing with hardware manufacturers. Also, respectfully, I really think you are missing the point as far as the driver issue. If I want to upgrade my driver in Windows I just go to the manufacturers website, choose Windows XP, and double click That is it.

On the driver download pages I have seen for Linux there are different instructions for Ubuntu, Debian, Slackware... there are package dependencies to worry about... kernel versions... for a beginner it makes you want to go WTF!?!?!

What's your point? That people would not buy your pcs with linux preloaded? Or is it about hardware? Because if it's about hardware you have to do what Dell did-- choose hardware that is supported on linux, which also what is done for preinstalled windows as well. Dell didn't have a problem, so why should you?

My point is that I should be able to buy whatever hardware I want, and my OS should just support it.

I'm glad that you're keeping with it, because honestly you need to use Linux for a few months to get how to do things, that is of course assuming that during that time you are actively challenging yourself.

I will continue using the dual boot and challenging myself, I may gain a new perspective over the course of a few months / year.

[Cabhan]

My point is that I should be able to buy whatever hardware I want, and my OS should just support it.

This statement strikes me the most. This is not the way any of it works.

When you buy hardware and plug it into a Windows system, Windows is not supporting the hardware. Rather, the hardware is supporting Windows. The hardware manufacturer has written a driver that works with the Windows infrastructure. Windows did not do anything to support it.

Linux is in a similar situation, except that the hardware manufacturers tend not to necessarily provide drivers. This is usually okay, in that the Linux community reverse engineers the device and writes their own. Or maybe the device is generic, say, a mouse, and can therefore just use a generic driver.

I agree with your statement. All hardware should be universally supported. But that's not the case. And I don't consider it Linux's fault: the Linux community has said on many occasions that they will happily write the drivers if the manufacturer will just give them enough documentation.

If you're going to assemble a Linux computer, you're right, you do need to do a bit of research and see what hardware is supported. For instance, some wireless drivers have native support, others go through ndiswrapper. Some may have no support. Research.

I realize that I could probably have done a lot more to try to repair the problems, but some of this stuff is very intimidating for someone with zero Linux experience.

I agree. When I first installed Linux, I was greeted with a black screen with the words "This video mode is not supported". Through forums, through research, through others helping me, I got over all of these issues, most of which simply required me to not look at it is "Windows does it this way".


On another note:

If you're using Ubuntu, you should almost never be going to a website to download software or anything to install. Use apt-get (or the Synaptic program). These were created to let you say "Install this", and let it worry about how to get that done.

We all started out with 0 Linux experience. Just stay with it, keep an open mind, and be willing to ask and research. It'll come in time.

[Agent-X]

Well, to counter that, I'm surprised nobody has really made a Linux-based company for wireless devices. I mean, seriously, the major reason people stop using Linux is because they can't get onto the Internet.

I know CISCO and others have tried to make Linux-compatible hardware. However, although I might be wrong, it seems outside forces persuade them to eventually stop doing that. I'm pretty sure the Linux-compatible hardware sells. There are plenty of people looking forward to buying it today.

All a person has to do is simply create better ways for users to get on the Internet.

It's pretty much based around a lot of social and economic concepts. One is giving money to companies and controlling how that money gets from Point A to Poinsettia. And the other is about controlling the people, which means stopping them from using Linux because of hardware constraints and limitations and pointing them toward Windows.

Anyway, a professional is only proven by a type of certification. A mastermind has no limitations and is a savant toward various topics of interest. I rather be a mastermind; I get to take the professional's job because he/she lost creativity and improvisation somewhere down the line.

Linux and the Open-Source projects are Microsoft's competitors. They always have been, and they always will be.

But to say the least, I don't see why Linux hasn't been able to support wireless devices. I mean, there has to be ways to automate the installation process of wireless devices through repositories and wired device connections to the Internet. I suppose automated processes would speed everything up. Also, I can't imagine there being over 1000 wireless USB devices. If there are, I'm sure the most mainstream one's could have automation application. Afterwards, those could be put in repositories. Why is nobody doing this? Seriously? You would think people would be intelligent enough to do it.

Automate stuff. Automate a redirect to a link if it moved. Automate everything. Jeeze. It's not that difficult. sed and awk could even be useful in these kind of situations. If somethings changes, then replace and redirect. As long as it's using logic, then it's possible.

Like, why do I still have to install ndiswrapper and automate the install? I'm pretty sure a program, package, or other could read the device from the port, send it to a log, search the log for various discriminates, and upload those details to a server. Afterwards, the detail replies that it cannot automate the installation. Otherwise, it replies that it can and sends an automated installer back to the user.

Why can't this be done? I don't know. In the meantime, everyone is fretting.