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Installing software in Linux (for L4Linux) First, you have to realize it's "all source code". Apt or RPM installs this source code. Red Hat and it's derivatives are the most ...
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  1. #11
    Just Joined! Sunnyside's Avatar
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    Installing software in Linux (for L4Linux)

    First, you have to realize it's "all source code". Apt or RPM installs this source code.
    Red Hat and it's derivatives are the most popular Linux distributions. Software designers sometimes bundle their source code in an .rpm to make it easier for those less knowledged...which is why package managers were created...to help bring Linux into the mainstream by making it easier to install, remove and update source code.

    If you have to install RPM in Debian as a dependency for Alien, why not just cut down on the bloating and avoid installing software you don't need. Alien's advantage is for converting to .deb for redistribution. But if all you want to do is install the .rpm in your Debian, use RPM which you have to install anyway to use Alien (apparently). Because both Apt and RPM are just package managers that install source code, and they are smart enough to know when source code dependencies are already installed and won't install it again.

    Your strategy is poor:
    1: Download source code bundled in an .rpm package
    2: Install tons of extra software you really don't need.
    3: Pull the source code out of the .rpm
    4: Put the source code in a .deb
    5: Install it with Apt
    It's still the same source code, only now you bloated your system and spent way too much time installing this package.

    What Debian offers:
    1: Download source code bundled in an .rpm package
    2: Install RPM and it's dependencies
    3: Install the source with "one" simple command you are familiar with. (Since one of the objectives when including RPM in repositories is to convert Red Hat users)

    When it's installed by either package manager, it does the same job. If RPM complains of missing dependencies, install them with Apt because chances are you won't have RPM repositories configured for Debian, and if the dependency can only be found in a .rpm from the designer, install it with RPM.
    It really don't matter what package manager installed it, it's the same. And because you have both package managers installed, removing and updating cleanly is not an issue.

  2. #12
    Linux Engineer jledhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunnyside View Post
    Installing software in Linux (for L4Linux)

    Red Hat and it's derivatives are the most popular Linux distributions.
    as true as that is, the total # of packages available by default for redhat/fedora vs debian is very different. redhat is I believe around 5000, but we will fudge a little and say 10000 available packages to install. debian has over 20000 available in the repos. For a lot of people that is one of the biggest features of debian is the wide community support and the number of available packages.


    Code:
    If you have to install RPM in Debian as a dependency for Alien, why not just cut down on the bloating and avoid installing software you don't need. Alien's advantage is for converting to .deb for redistribution. But if all you want to do is install the .rpm in your Debian, use RPM which you have to install anyway to use Alien (apparently). Because both Apt and RPM are just package managers that install source code, and they are smart enough to know when source code dependencies are already installed and won't install it again.
    if it was really that easy then all packages would come as tar.gz. different distro's have different paths and different ways of handling things and put files in different places. for example, any rpm that updates an init script will try and run chkconfig, and it will fail to create an init script in debian because debian uses update-rc.d.

    so to try and get this thread back on track (because it has obviously been hijacked), yes you can use rpm to install an rpm package in debian but you have to install the rpm package, apt-get install rpm

    but you will probably have to install every dependency that is required using rpm because debian may not have the same version of the dependency that is required for a redhat/fedora build. apt-get may not be able to get the version level required for the rpm.

    so maybe we can rerail this derailed thread because the ultimate goal is to get the poster the help he wants. help sometimes comes in the form of an opinion though since there are so many ways to do things in linux, but its help nonetheless.

  3. #13
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    Good grief! Why bother with rpms and tarballs? One of the reasons - the main reason - I use Debian is because it's so easy to install apps and programs using apt-get.

    If you have the proper repos in your source list, you can install Flash using apt-get or the GUI Synaptic.

    Just open Synaptic and search for Flash. Install 'flashplayer-mozilla' and 'flashplugin-nonfree-extrasound'. Easy as pie.

    You know, you really don't have to have the latest version of what ever.

    Oh, one other thing, I've been installing Debian for a long time using the netinstall disk. One CD to fool with. Get the rest of your apps/programs from the repos.

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  5. #14
    Just Joined! Sunnyside's Avatar
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    You guys are missing the point.
    There are tons of OSS software out there that does not come in .deb packages in repositories or otherwise. But they do come in source, or .rpm packages which usually contain all their custom libraries and dependencies. This is where you have many choices, install from source by installing headers and build essentials etc. etc. etc. And go through it all again when there is an upgrade, plus try and remove the first (which is not always cut & dry).

    Or you can use a smart package manager called RPM and issue the command in the OPs first post and it's installed properly. And when there is an update which will also be available in .rpm, again, one simple command can fetch it and upgrade the original.

    Or....you can install useless software to spend extra time converting that .rpm into a .deb so another package manager can put it in place. And when it comes to upgrading your custom .deb, it's not going to happen by issuing an apt-get update command, your going to have to go through all that stupidity again.

    If a package is available in .deb, that is the way to go. But that is not always the case. If your stuck or just prefer installing from source or .rpm using a smart package manager is the better route. RPM has it's place in any Linux OS because tons of obscure software is available in .rpm.

    Oh, one other thing, I've been installing Debian for a long time using the netinstall disk. One CD to fool with. Get the rest of your apps/programs from the repos.
    Good for you, shall I throw you a bone? Is this the preffered method on dial-up?

  6. #15
    Linux Enthusiast L4Linux's Avatar
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    First of all, a suggestion to moderators: Make a new forum category for rants and "mini flames" and make it accessible only to logged-in users. Seriously, we may be driving people away at this very moment with this and similar threads.

    Every distribution has a package management system for good reason: Keep the libraries, dependencies, configuration files, etc the way they should be in the current distribution. Maybe certain Debian programs work well with version 1.02.443-a of a library and if your RPM puts 1.03.12 it will cause a regression until programs are updated to support the new version.
    If you want to use RPM directly, do it at your own system and at your own risk of breaking it. Don't tell new users that alien is bloatware and use RPM directly against what the DEBIAN DEVELOPERS STRONGLY SUGGEST.

    Your strategy is poor:
    1: Download source code bundled in an .rpm package
    2: Install tons of extra software you really don't need.
    3: Pull the source code out of the .rpm
    4: Put the source code in a .deb
    5: Install it with Apt
    Is it rocket sience to type "alien -i flash-plugin-10.0.15.3-release.i386.rpm"???

    What Debian offers:
    1: Download source code bundled in an .rpm package
    2: Install RPM and it's dependencies
    3: Install the source with "one" simple command you are familiar with. (Since one of the objectives when including RPM in repositories is to convert Red Hat users)
    RPM in Debian repositories exist because it is a dependency for alien. Debian developers would probably rather remove it from their repositories completely. Debian users are not familiar with rpm syntax. Google for "Debian RPM" and see the results.
    I don't know how many years you use Linux. I used Suse 6.2 for the first time (and started using Linux again 3 years ago). Back at those days, existed the notorious "dependency hell". And now that we no longer have to deal with it, you suggest to install each dependency manually. That is 10 years to the past and in no way easier than "alien -i flash...".

    If you think your idea of using RPM directly is viable, contact Debian developers and put your idea in Ubuntu brainstorm. Something like "the warning for using RPM directly is not needed and should be removed. Also put on alien package a line saying that you can use RPM instead of alien". Or make a fork of Debian that will use both package managers by deafult. (I don't mean to have RPM preinstalled, I mean both RPM & DPKG keeping track of each other to prevent system from breaking)

    And that we should not have an opinion is a very strong opinion in itself. If you don't want to have an opinion at all, use a closed source OS.

    And happy New Year everybody!

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