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Greetings! Using the convention of HD0 as the "main drive" where the system boots from, I have Lilo on the MBR with XP-Pro (using NTFS) on HD0-1,2,3, Mandrake on HD0-5,6,7,8, ...
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  1. #1
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    Installing Win98SE on HD1 with LILO, XP, Mandrake+ on HD0


    Greetings!

    Using the convention of HD0 as the "main drive" where the system boots from, I have Lilo on the MBR with XP-Pro (using NTFS) on HD0-1,2,3, Mandrake on HD0-5,6,7,8, and Fedora Core 2 on HD0-9,10,11,12 -- this drive is 160 G.

    I just replaced a failing HD1 with a new 80 G drive and would like to put Windows 98 SE on it, as well as a 2-3 Linux Distros. I've already partitioned the drive with three primary Fat32 partitions for Windows, and will use the remaining space in an extended partition divided up for the Linux distros.

    Additionally, I have an existing 12 G drive as HD2 on which I have an HD installation of Knoppix (HD2-2 with HD2-1 as linux-swap), along with a Fat32 partition (HD2-3) for sharing data between Linux and Windows.

    That's the setup--here's the question:

    How to install Windows 98 on HD1 (the 80 G drive I just installed and formatted) without writing over the MBR on HD0 and mucking up Lilo, etc.? I suspect there's a way to do this, but I'm something of a "newbie" with these things, so I'm counting on you good people to help keep me from trashing my system.

    Hopefully I've given you enough information, but if not, please feel free message me or reply in this forum.

    Thanks in advance for any advice you can provide me.

    One love!

    Xochipilli

  2. #2
    Linux Engineer Nerderello's Avatar
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    be aware that Win98 demands to be on the first (hd0 in your naming) hard disk. If not, then it will not boot (and I suspect install).

    What I would do is disconnect all drives and make the Win98 drive the first (and only) drive. Then install Win 98SE, then reconnect all drives inthe way you want and map the Win98SE drive to be the first, whenever it is boot to (admittadly I use GRUB not LILO, but hopefully there will be a similar facility [map] in LILO).

    have fun

    Nerderello

    Use Suse 10.1 and occasionally play with Kubuntu
    Also have Windows 98SE and BeOS

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    Hey Nerderello,

    I appreciate your response, although I had hoped there was a solution that wouldn't involve my going back inside my box (you know--all the disconnecting and reconnecting...etc., because, well...I'm lazy!). I received a similar suggestion on Linux Questions but you're the first to inform me about Win98's demand to be on HD0.

    For me to make the drive I want to put Win98 on as HD0 I can leave the drives where they are and the cables in place--I just need to change jumper settings to reverse the current master / slave relationship between the two drives. (At least, I'm assuming this would be the most straightforward way of doing this--although I might need to pull out a drive to confirm the jumper setting changes.)

    I'm also assuming that once I've got Win98 installed on HD0, and can use one of my Linux distros to overwrite the MBR with either Lilo or Grub (I've heard different arguments favoring one over the other--I have edited lilo.conf several times and gotten somewhat familiar with that process, so switching over to Grub for this process might be a good opportunity to learn something new).

    I'm curious about your statement that the drives could ultimately be set up as they are now and that the drive with Win98 could somehow be "mapped" to be HD0. Where would this mapping take place--in the BIOS (which currently auto-detects the drives)?

    Thanks again for your attention to this matter, and for being patient with my obvious newbie-ness !

    Regards,

    Xochipilli

  4. #4
    Linux Engineer Nerderello's Avatar
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    from my own experience, I have found it easier to change cables around (temporarily) than fiddle around with tiny little jumpers.

    Once Windows is installed, your Linux install will ask you if you want a boot loader and where you'd like it put. So it will happily overwrite your mbr (after asking you - unlike Windows that just does it).

    I'm not sure how the 'map' command in Grub works, but it does work. And if you use one of the free Linux partition reading (from within windows) applications, you have tou remember that the /dev/hdxx numbers will have changed.

    have fun

    Nerderello

    Use Suse 10.1 and occasionally play with Kubuntu
    Also have Windows 98SE and BeOS

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    Nerderello,

    Thanks for your continued assistance in this matter.

    I suppose if I simply disconnect the "master" drive (where XP and two Linux distros are installed) and then leave the current slave connected, I might get away with "fooling" the computer that it is the Primary (HD0) drive without having to set a jumper, and if so, you are right--disconnecting a ribbon connector is easier than moving a jumper.

    Another fellow suggested something similar to you except that he didn't mention W98's "demand" to be on the first drive in the system. He suggested that I simply disconnect all other drives from the system temporarily, install Win98, then reconnect them. I was curious if his method might not work, assuming your idea of "re-mapping" with Grub, or even Lilo. When I installed Knoppix and Fedora Core 2, I opted to have both install their boot-loaders on their own partitions rather than the MBR. In that way I am able to use Lilo (installed by Mandrake) which is on the MBR, to simply point to those partitions as "other" partitions (as if they were non-linux) without specifically naming the kernel images and this causes their bootloaders to run. I'm wondering if something similar might not be possible with W98, as follows:

    Could I ?:

    1) Disconnect my main drive (current master on IDE 1), leaving the target drive (current slave on IDE 1) connected,

    2) Disconnect the CDROM and 3rd HD off of IDE 2 (just in case),

    3) Boot the system with a Win98 SE boot-floppy, and instally W98 on the only drive connected to the system,

    (here's the tricky part that may not work if I'm understanding what you've shared about W98 demanding to be on the first drive of the system)

    4) Reconnecting all the drives as they were before

    5) Edit Lilo that is on the MBR to have a pointer to HD1 (or HD1a - 1st partition on the 2nd drive--or would I need to point to the "boot" partition of the 2nd drive for this to work?)

    And would this possibly fool Win98 into starting even though it would be on the second drive in the system, albeit on the first partition?

    I realize you don't use Lilo, so you might not be able to confirm this.

    I don't mind experimenting a bit with this stuff so long as I don't mess my computer up so badly that I cannot get XP started again (as I need it for my work). I think even if I mess up the MBR I have a boot floppy I can use (I learned to make from an Elder Geek article: http://www.theeldergeek.com/create_xp_boot_disk.htm) which I've confirmed works when the MBR gets hosed.

    Thanks again for your help Nerderello. Have a great day!


    Xochipilli

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    Well...I didn't think I could screw up XP doing this, but...

    I decided to bit the bullet, disconnect the main drive (where Lilo on MBR, generated by Mandrake's lilo.conf file lives) which has XP, Mandrake, and Fedora, and use a floppy to boot the machine in order to install Win98 on the first partition of the 2nd drive, typically slaved to drive 1.

    In that configuration W98 installed fine and booted fine, but I wanted a multi-boot machine and that would require a boot loader. I'd been using Lilo, so I thought I would stick with it.

    I reconnected the main drive and configured Lilo to look for Win98 on the first partition of the 2nd drive--but it couldn't load it. So I tried changing the jumpers so the master/slave relationship was reversed, after first writing to the MBR of the 2nd Drive with lilo, including pointers for both XP and W98. This may have been a mistake.

    Lilo did load up when the 2nd drive was made the main boot drive, but it did not behave as expected. It pointed to Knoppix on drive 3 ok, but got confused between Win98 and XP. When I chose XP, it wouldn't load anything. When I chose Win98, it loaded XP. So long as I was there, I wanted to see how the drive configuration looked--and I was shocked.

    My XP installation has three primary NTFS partions for windows, applications, and data (my documents, etc.) respectively. XP no longer showed the 2nd and 3rd partitions within "My Computer" -- that cinched for me--I wanted no part of something that was going to mess my drive structure up. So I abandoned W98 being installed on my multi-boot computer, as it wasn't launchable from Lilo anyway.

    I switched everything back to original configuration and was shocked to find that even when the original main disk was returned to being the boot disk, with the Mandrake-generated Lilo intact, the same drive problem persisted! I could only see the Windows drive and the Fat32 drive/partition that W98 was on. I went into Disk Manager and can see the partitions there--they are "healthy" and appear to be the right sizes. But they cannot be re-named or re-assigned, and the only option available is "delete" which I don't think I should need to do. Also, the Disk Manager showed those partitions as "Unknown Partition" or something like that. I know I should be posting this on an XP forum, but as it might have something to do with Linux or making with the MBR and other boot records using Lilo, I thought it wouldn't hurt, especially as it relates to my process (which has been a complete failure thus far) of trying to install W98 >after< everything else (a "no no" I have discovered), and now the attempted has made my XP largely unusable.

    In Summary--I'm giving up on putting W98 on this system--as it isn't worth the trouble. Thanks to some functioning linux distros, I can get online, do research and hopefully find some assistance. I just wish I wasn't so naive or ignorant as I never expected this would turn into so a problem.

    Regards everyone, and never try what I did without really know what you are doing first.

    Peace.

    Xochipilli

  7. #7
    Linux Engineer Nerderello's Avatar
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    when you are in you Linux, run the hardware browser and see what it thinks about the drives and partitions. See if you still have NTFS partitions where you expect them (Linux can read but not write to NTFS, while Win98 can't do either).

    good luck

    Tony

    Use Suse 10.1 and occasionally play with Kubuntu
    Also have Windows 98SE and BeOS

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    I've abandoned the W98 project and re-installed XP

    Hi Nerderello,

    I was able to see the partitions and their files from within Linux, even though XP couldn't see them save for the Disk Manager, which simply saw "unknown" partitions. Someone else suggested I try using Linux fdisk to change the partition type, but as this sounded rather risky I backed up new data first, using Linux, and then I made the attempt--but with cfdisk as the man page for fdisk indicated that fdisk is comparitively "buggy" and cfdisk is the better choice. Fairly predictably, attempting to fix the partition table from Linux damaged the one NTFS partition that XP could still read--the one it was installed on, so the whole story was rendered unusable. At that point I decided the simplest course of action was to wipe and reformat those partitions and re-install XP and all my apps again.

    While it was lot of extra time that I could have spent doing something else, it was also a good lesson that one needs to be very careful mucking about XP - I just had no idea that temporarily changing the boot order of a harddrive where XP was installed would have created that sort of havoc. Thankfully, none of my Linux distros got hurt, and it was a simple matter to put Lilo back on the MBR once XP was re-installed--so things are just about back to "normal" (and if I want to have W98 and XP on the same machine someday, it will be done the way most commonly recommended: Windows versions get installed from oldest to most recent, followed by Linux. What I was trying to do was a long shot at best.

    In any case, this puts that particular thread to rest. Thanks for your input!

    Xochipilli

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