[pocketrocket]

I have a Sony Vaio laptop with MS Windows Vista Business already installed on it. I'm installing Ubuntu 8.04.1 from a live CD and at least one other Linux OS (still deciding between Mandriva and Xandros Desktop Professional) on it. I might decide to install all 3 linuxes (not getting too greedy, I hope!)

The HD has 3 partitions already on it. I've attached a JPG of Vista's Disk Management tool's display. I don't think TPM is on this computer, but I'm not sure.

Partition 1) Primary: ~8.66 GB NTFS, MS Windows Vista recovery partition (no drive letter) (I want to keep it)
Partition 2) Primary: ~184 GB NTFS, MS Windows Vista (C: drive)
Partition 3) Extended: ~40 GB, Free space = no logical partitions on it at the moment. This is where I intend for Ubuntu + at least 1 other Linux OS to reside. (These are probably GiB rather than GB, but I'm not 100% sure)

The laptop has 3 GB RAM. I'd like to be able to hibernate from both Linuxes, if possible. I can hibernate in Vista, but that doesn't require a separate partition.

I believe I need at least 4 more partitions:
* Ubuntu: 1 logical bootable root partition (ext3, ~10 GB) and 1 Linux swap partition (~3 GB?)
* Mandriva or Xandros: 1 logical bootable root partition (ext3, ~10 GB) and 1 additional Linux swap partition (~ 3GB?)
* File exchange: An optional logical FAT32 partition (~4 GB), as a way to exchange files between OSs w/o USB sticks
* Unallocated on Extended partition initially: ~10GB.

I'm assuming that if I figure out how to successfully get hibernation to work, that it's safer to have the swap partitions be separate so I don't "step" on one if I boot-up into the other Linux system while hibernating in the other one. (I'm not sure it's possible to hibernate in one and boot-up the other, but just in case I could do so, swap partitions should be separate)

I know that there's software called a "boot loader", and that Grub & Lilo have something to do with this (not sure if they are themselves boot loaders, nor exactly how the x86 boot-strapping process works in detail). I'm pretty sure Vista has its own boot loader, but not sure what it is called.

Here are my questions:
Q0. Is my assumption correct; do I need four logical partitions w/in the extended partition, as described above, or do I need something other than that?

Q1. Will the 2 new ext3 partitions be bootable & the 2 new swap partitions be swap-enabled even though they're on logical partitions?

Q1A. The installation for Xandros Desktop Professional might fail if it only installs itself and its swap partition onto Primary partitions, the way Windows systems tend to, because there will only be room to add 1 more primary partition. Is there some way to know this ahead of time (that question really belongs in a Xandros forum, so I 'll see if I can find one...)

Q2. Does it make sense to install Xandros Desktop Pro or Ubuntu first, if I pick Xandros?

Q3. How do I prevent losing ability to boot into Vista? I have backed up my data and I have my Vista recovery discs on hand, but it takes a long time to start all over again from scratch...

Q4. Am I required to use Vista boot loading instead of Grub? I don't care which boot loader I use as long as it works, I have access to the various OSs, I can select a default system, set the # seconds before system automatically starts up, and put my choices in a preferred order.


I found some links through Google:
Multiboot Vista and linuxes - Multiboot Vista and linuxes - ibibo blogs
This link looks promising. He started with Vista and added debian and kubuntu and ended with all 3 choices in Vista boot loader. He recommends using EasyBCD from Neosmart Technologies. I understood the first part of what he wrote, but I got very confused when I continued reading the details of what he did in EasyBCD.

and

How to dual-boot Vista with Linux (Vista installed first) -- the step-by-step guide with screenshots
(This is a list of is very easy steps to follow, but I think it assumes I'm putting Ubuntu onto Primary partitions
(It shows how to use this option: "Guided - use the largest continuous free space" instead of "Manual". I don't think my situation is as simple as what they've documented)

and

Debugging Windows Vista

and
Using Vista's Boot Manager to Boot Linux and Dual Booting with BitLocker Protection with TPM Support - Port 25: The Open Source Community at Microsoft

but except for the 2nd one, they're a little advanced for me; I'm still deciphering them.


Q5. Assuming I must use Vista's Boot Configuration Data capability, what do I need to do to figure out what to input to the Vista tool, and how/when to input it? Need a link for this. I'm still working on figuring out the information in the 1st link above and I'll be googling EasyBCD next.

I know this is a lot. I intend to keep researching via google, but I appreciate any help you can provide.

thank you
LM

[yancek]

I'm not going to be able to answer all your questions, particularly with regard to possible problems with hibernating. I will say that for a standard system, 3GB is more than enough RAM and swap will probably never be used unless you are doing intensive graphics/gaming, so multiple swap partitions are not needed. Different Linux OS's use the same swap if necessary.

Linux OS's can boot from logical partitions and swap is often on a logical partition. Most newer versions of Linux have read/write to ntfs partitions by default but it may need to be installed or configured on some but the optional FAT32 should be no problem

I don't know about Xandros but every Linux distro I've read about installs to logical partitions?

Booting vista from Linux is generally not a problem. The Grub bootloader (yes, it is a bootloader as is Lilo) generally detects windows installations and puts an entry in the boot menu automatically (like anything not 100% guarantee). You can also boot Linux from vista and the easybcd from neosmart is probably the best way to go if you choose that.

If you have your vista disk and backups you should be alright. If you use Grub, after you have your installs done it is a simple matter of editing a text file for boot entries. Also, I would recommend you google 'SuperGrubDisk' and download it as it has the ability to repair windows and Linux bootloaders. As far as installing Xandros or Ubuntu first, I'm not sure it matters. The thing you need to watch for is that at the end of each installation it asks where you want to install the bootloader. The default is mbr of the first disk. So you need to decide how you want to boot.

[Jonathan183]

Swap
It is up to you if you create swap partitions ... if you decide they are required you are unlikely to require swap greater than 1GB.

Bootloaders
It is possible to use Windows or Linux bootloader to setup multi-boot. It is easier to use grub to setup multi-boot as the configuration is normally done automatically by the installer.

Sharing data
You can use a FAT32 partition for sharing data between Windows and Linux, you can also use an NTFS partition if you use the ntfs-3g driver you get stable read/write access.

I don't know about Xandros because I have not used it but Ubuntu will also setup grub menu entries for existing OS during the install.

[devils casper]

Originally Posted by pocketrocket

Q0. Is my assumption correct; do I need four logical partitions w/in the extended partition, as described above, or do I need something other than that?

There is no need to create more than one SWAP partition. Linux Installers detect SWAP partition during installation and you can share single SWAP partition in all distros.

Originally Posted by pocketrocket

Q1. Will the 2 new ext3 partitions be bootable & the 2 new swap partitions be swap-enabled even though they're on logical partitions?

Unlike Windows OS, there is no need to set boot flag for Linux Partitions. In other words, one can install Linux in Logical Partitions and boot up from any type of partition easily.

Originally Posted by pocketrocket

Q1A. The installation for Xandros Desktop Professional might fail if it only installs itself and its swap partition onto Primary partitions, the way Windows systems tend to, because there will only be room to add 1 more primary partition. Is there some way to know this ahead of time (that question really belongs in a Xandros forum, so I 'll see if I can find one...)

Like all other Linux distros, Xandros can be installed in Logical partition. FreeBSDs need to be installed in Primary Partitions.

Originally Posted by pocketrocket

Q3. How do I prevent losing ability to boot into Vista? I have backed up my data and I have my Vista recovery discs on hand, but it takes a long time to start all over again from scratch...

You have backed up data already. There shouldn't be any worry now. Installer of almost all Linux distros detect Windows OSes and setup dual boot by default. You wont have to do anything for dual boot setup.

Originally Posted by pocketrocket

Q4. Am I required to use Vista boot loading instead of Grub? I don't care which boot loader I use as long as it works, I have access to the various OSs, I can select a default system, set the # seconds before system automatically starts up, and put my choices in a preferred order.

Go for GRUB only. Its one of the best Boot Loader and you will find a plenty of help here and all over the web.

[pocketrocket]

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses.

I've been googling away regarding hibernation on Linux systems:
Hibernate disables grub... - MandrivaUsers.org
Linux.com :: Put your laptop to sleep
http://www.linuxforums.org/forum/ubu...hibernate.html
Ubuntu brainstorm - Use file for hibernation instead of swap partition
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+s...ols/+bug/50437
What do you need a "Linux Swap" Partition for? - WinMatrix
https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+question/32233
SWAP file [Archive] - Ubuntu Forums
Linux: Discussing Hibernation Requirements | KernelTrap
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+s...nux/+bug/88377
Arch Linux Forums / [SOVLED][DON'T KNOW REASON]resume failed with "invalid resume device"
LKML: (Joseph Fannin): Hibernating To Swap Considered Harmful
Booting Linux in Less Than 40 Seconds LG #147

Summary thus far:
1) If I want to hibernate, I need to have at least 1 "swap" partition on the HD so that a persistent image of RAM is stored (or figure out how to use a hibernation file, which I've found very little information about). The swap partition must be at least as big as my laptop's RAM.

I don't know why this isn't called a "hibernation" partition, since that's what its purpose is. For reasons I don't understand, there's no such thing as a separate type of partition, a Hibernate partition. However, there was some (mostly incomprehensible to me, I'm sad to say) discussion of saving the hibernation information in a hibernation file in the root partition. I don't know if that has been or will become part of the Linux kernel, and why or why not.

2) Thus far in my searches, no one recommends hibernating more than one Linux system at a time, and at least two people recommended against doing so

3) What can go wrong if hibernating multiple Operating Systems?
a) assuming one is using a swap partition to store hibernation data, if I boot up Linux A, hibernate it storing its state to swap partition 1, and then boot up Linux B and it uses swap partition 1 as its swap partition as well, then I've clobbered Linux A's ability to resume from hibernation.

b) Let's assume I create one swap partition per Linux installation, and I can somehow successfully identify to each Linux installation which swap partition belongs to it (that second one is a huge assumption for someone at my skill level). So I boot up Linux A, it's using swap partition #1, and I decide I need to use a different Linux OS. I hibernate Linux A onto swap partition 1. Let's assume Grub lets me boot up into Linux B and doesn't force me to resume Linux A (I don't know what Grub actually does, so again, a big assumption) So hypothetically, I've booted Linux B and it's using swap partition #2. I put Linux B into hibernation mode, it saves its hibernation information to swap partition #2. At a later point in time, I am free to resume Linux A using the hibernation information from swap partition #1, or Linux B using the hibernation information from swap partition #2.

Assuming I could get the boot loader to cooperate with this wonderful fantasy I still have a serious problem. I have at least one "file exchange" partition. (as mentioned in my initial post) Or perhaps a USB stick. If I don't unmount these filesystems before I go into hibernation, then when I bootup or resume the other Linux OS, I'll most likely corrupt my files.

I think this problem would happen regardless of whether I used hibernation files on the root partitions of Linux A and Linux B or if I use swap partitions #1 and #2 as described above.

4) In fact, if I hibernate Windows, then boot up Linux, make changes to the shared FAT32 file system, shutdown Linux, and resume Windows, I'm not sure, but I might be taking the chance of corrupting the shared file system.


__________________________________________________ _________

So, this means that if I want to hibernate multiple operating systems, I must, at the very least:

1) Have either a separate swap partition or hibernate file per Linux system installed on the computer

2) Don't use any "exchange" file systems. Unmount them. (How does one explicitly unmount a file system in MS Windows? Something I need to research on the MS Windows forums, I suppose)

3) Always remember to use "Safely remove" or "unmount" commands, & unplug the media, for USB sticks and all other removable media, before I go into hibernation mode.

cheers,
LM

[pocketrocket]

I successfully installed Ubuntu on July 26th.

My thanks to devils casper, jonathon, and yancek! Thanks for all of your help.

I used Vista's disk management tool to split up the extended partition into logical partitions before the install, and then used the partition editor during the Ubuntu installation to tell it what was swap, where to mount root, & where to mount everything else.

I have two windows longhorn in the grub menu at boot up, but as long as I know which is which, I'm not concerned. I'll get around to finding a way to label them with different names later.

Now, onward to installing Xandros and/or Mandriva...

thx,
LM

[devils casper]

I have two windows longhorn in the grub menu at boot up, but as long as I know which is which, I'm not concerned. I'll get around to finding a way to label them with different names later.

You can edit /boot/grub/menu.lst file and assign any title. You must have root privileges to do so. Press Alt+F2 and type this

gksu gedit /boot/grub/menu.lst

It will open menu.lst file in Gedit with root privileges.

Regrading two entries, post the contents of menu.lst file here. Are both entries booting up same OS? Is there any Vista Recovery Partition in your HD?

[pocketrocket]

Originally Posted by devils casper

You can edit /boot/grub/menu.lst file and assign any title. You must have root privileges to do so. Press Alt+F2 and type this

gksu gedit /boot/grub/menu.lst

It will open menu.lst file in Gedit with root privileges.

Regrading two entries, post the contents of menu.lst file here. Are both entries booting up same OS? Is there any Vista Recovery Partition in your HD?

thanks. I'm posting the menu.lst file. No, I think they boot differently. Yes, there's a Vista recovery partition on the HD. Before I edit menu.lst, is there a way to boot into some single-line mode to fix it, in case I break it? I guess I should make a copy of the old one, like 'menu.lst.backup', before making changes... That might improve my chances of recovering from an error.

I have a Vista recovery partition (no drive letter associated with it from Windows, but can be booted so that the C: drive/partition can be repaired). That is the first primary partition on disk 0. The second primary partition on disk 0 is Windows Vista Business, also known as the C: drive. The next partition I think is the extended partition, with logical partitions within it.

/boot/grub/menu.lst follows:

# menu.lst - See: grub(8), info grub, update-grub(8)
#            grub-install(8), grub-floppy(8),
#            grub-md5-crypt, /usr/share/doc/grub
#            and /usr/share/doc/grub-doc/.

## default num
# Set the default entry to the entry number NUM. Numbering starts from 0, and
# the entry number 0 is the default if the command is not used.
#
# You can specify 'saved' instead of a number. In this case, the default entry
# is the entry saved with the command 'savedefault'.
# WARNING: If you are using dmraid do not use 'savedefault' or your
# array will desync and will not let you boot your system.
default		0

## timeout sec
# Set a timeout, in SEC seconds, before automatically booting the default entry
# (normally the first entry defined).
timeout		10

## hiddenmenu
# Hides the menu by default (press ESC to see the menu)
#hiddenmenu

# Pretty colours
#color cyan/blue white/blue

## password ['--md5'] passwd
# If used in the first section of a menu file, disable all interactive editing
# control (menu entry editor and command-line)  and entries protected by the
# command 'lock'
# e.g. password topsecret
#      password --md5 $1$gLhU0/$aW78kHK1QfV3P2b2znUoe/
# password topsecret

#
# examples
#
# title		Windows 95/98/NT/2000
# root		(hd0,0)
# makeactive
# chainloader	+1
#
# title		Linux
# root		(hd0,1)
# kernel	/vmlinuz root=/dev/hda2 ro
#

#
# Put static boot stanzas before and/or after AUTOMAGIC KERNEL LIST

### BEGIN AUTOMAGIC KERNELS LIST
## lines between the AUTOMAGIC KERNELS LIST markers will be modified
## by the debian update-grub script except for the default options below

## DO NOT UNCOMMENT THEM, Just edit them to your needs

## ## Start Default Options ##
## default kernel options
## default kernel options for automagic boot options
## If you want special options for specific kernels use kopt_x_y_z
## where x.y.z is kernel version. Minor versions can be omitted.
## e.g. kopt=root=/dev/hda1 ro
##      kopt_2_6_8=root=/dev/hdc1 ro
##      kopt_2_6_8_2_686=root=/dev/hdc2 ro
# kopt=root=UUID=6a8e0d49-76e5-4530-994c-7250a47fd975 ro

## Setup crashdump menu entries
## e.g. crashdump=1
# crashdump=0

## default grub root device
## e.g. groot=(hd0,0)
# groot=(hd0,6)

## should update-grub create alternative automagic boot options
## e.g. alternative=true
##      alternative=false
# alternative=true

## should update-grub lock alternative automagic boot options
## e.g. lockalternative=true
##      lockalternative=false
# lockalternative=false

## additional options to use with the default boot option, but not with the
## alternatives
## e.g. defoptions=vga=791 resume=/dev/hda5
# defoptions=quiet splash

## should update-grub lock old automagic boot options
## e.g. lockold=false
##      lockold=true
# lockold=false

## Xen hypervisor options to use with the default Xen boot option
# xenhopt=

## Xen Linux kernel options to use with the default Xen boot option
# xenkopt=console=tty0

## altoption boot targets option
## multiple altoptions lines are allowed
## e.g. altoptions=(extra menu suffix) extra boot options
##      altoptions=(recovery) single
# altoptions=(recovery mode) single

## controls how many kernels should be put into the menu.lst
## only counts the first occurence of a kernel, not the
## alternative kernel options
## e.g. howmany=all
##      howmany=7
# howmany=all

## should update-grub create memtest86 boot option
## e.g. memtest86=true
##      memtest86=false
# memtest86=true

## should update-grub adjust the value of the default booted system
## can be true or false
# updatedefaultentry=false

## should update-grub add savedefault to the default options
## can be true or false
# savedefault=false

## ## End Default Options ##

title		Ubuntu 8.04.1, kernel 2.6.24-19-generic
root		(hd0,6)
kernel		/boot/vmlinuz-2.6.24-19-generic root=UUID=6a8e0d49-76e5-4530-994c-7250a47fd975 ro quiet splash
initrd		/boot/initrd.img-2.6.24-19-generic
quiet

title		Ubuntu 8.04.1, kernel 2.6.24-19-generic (recovery mode)
root		(hd0,6)
kernel		/boot/vmlinuz-2.6.24-19-generic root=UUID=6a8e0d49-76e5-4530-994c-7250a47fd975 ro single
initrd		/boot/initrd.img-2.6.24-19-generic

title		Ubuntu 8.04.1, memtest86+
root		(hd0,6)
kernel		/boot/memtest86+.bin
quiet

### END DEBIAN AUTOMAGIC KERNELS LIST

# This is a divider, added to separate the menu items below from the Debian
# ones.
title		Other operating systems:
root


# This entry automatically added by the Debian installer for a non-linux OS
# on /dev/sda1
title		Windows Vista/Longhorn (loader)
root		(hd0,0)
savedefault
makeactive
chainloader	+1


# This entry automatically added by the Debian installer for a non-linux OS
# on /dev/sda2
title		Windows Vista/Longhorn (loader)
root		(hd0,1)
savedefault
makeactive
chainloader	+1

thanks,
LM

[devils casper]

First entry for Windows Vista is linked to Recovery Partition only. Put # sign before title block in menu.lst file.

#title           Windows Vista/Longhorn (loader)
#root            (hd0,0)
#savedefault
#makeactive
#chainloader     +1

Save file and reboot machine. Nothing will go wrong.

Ubuntu 8.04.1, kernel 2.6.24-19-generic (recovery mode)

Above entry of GRUB Menu will let you boot up in Recovery Mode of Ubuntu. You can delete ( or put # sign ) all other entries.

A clean menu.lst file :

default         0
timeout         10

title           Ubuntu 8.04.1, kernel 2.6.24-19-generic
root            (hd0,6)
kernel          /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.24-19-generic root=UUID=6a8e0d49-76e5-4530-994c-7250a47fd975 ro quiet splash
initrd          /boot/initrd.img-2.6.24-19-generic
quiet

title           Ubuntu 8.04.1, kernel 2.6.24-19-generic (recovery mode)
root            (hd0,6)
kernel          /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.24-19-generic root=UUID=6a8e0d49-76e5-4530-994c-7250a47fd975 ro single
initrd          /boot/initrd.img-2.6.24-19-generic

title           Windows Vista
root            (hd0,1)
savedefault
makeactive
chainloader     +1

[pocketrocket]

I'm almost done with the process of installing Linuxes on my laptop.

I've installed, in this order:
a) Windows Vista (reinstalled from recovery disks just to be sure that I could re-install from recovery disks - I"m kinda paranoid )
b) Ubuntu
c) Xandros (the non-free version)
d) Mandriva

Because I installed Mandriva last, it is now in control of my boot-loading process. It has Ubuntu in its graphical grub boot-up menu, and when I select it, it puts the Ubuntu grub menu up. Then I select Ubuntu from that second grub menu.

Is there a way to modify Mandriva's menu.lst file so that it boots Ubuntu directly? (I.e. from Mandriva's grub menu instead of my having to go through the 2nd grub menu?) (if not, no big deal, but I was just wondering if I could save that step).

Should I ask this question on Mandriva forum instead?

thanks,
LM